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Thorens TD160 E no low frequencies - Help needed

ChronoSee

ChronoSee

New Member
Hello!
I've recently upgraded my turntable setup from CEC BD-2000 (VM95E) to Thorens TD 160 E TP-16 MK III tonearm with TP63 headshell (it came with Grado Green 1)
Unfortunately compared to CEC BD-2000 there is no low end, bass is non-existent.
I listen to Jazz, Rock, Soul and Electronic.
Jazz records sounds fine apart from bass gitar (it just disappeared). "Bill Withers - Just As I Am" sounds super flat. On previous turntable that was one of my favourite albums, it was full of life, rich and warm sounding.
Long Arm - Silent Opera, Felix Laband, Polo & Pan all sound like low frequencies were cut off at 80hz. I'm not sure at what frequency exactly, Thorens still produces a well defined mid-bass but absolutely no low end.
Complete setup:
Grado Green 1 -> Thorens TD160 E -> Pro-Ject Tubo Box S2 -> Triangle AIO Twin Speakers
Tracking force set to 1.5g (used digital weight).
Turntable is leveled, it has new RCA cables with ground attached by previous owner, AC adapter is new.

I tired increasing tracking force to 1,7g, changing gain settings on Pro-Ject and nothing seems to work. It's a weird issue as generally the table sounds stellar but the cutoff to low frequencies is terrible. In most places there is just a void, when on CEC songs were full of bass and rich.

I'm new to this hobby. I try to read and learn as much as I can. I absolutely love this.
I was very exited getting the Thorens. Everyone seems to love this turntable.
is there something I've done wrong or it's possible that Thorens just sounds this way?

If my english isn't up to forum standards, I'm sorry it's not my native language.
 
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Hi there. This isn't a 'Thorens' issue per-se. It sounds more like a cart/tonearm setup related problem to me, or for some reason, either of the wiring (TA or RCA) is acting up as a filter. The Green 1 is a rather dull cart IMO, but it lacks any designed features to make the low-end 'disappear'. This isn't right!

Try to use a protractor to properly align the cart in the headshell, verify the magnetic anti-skate mechanism does its job (float the arm and see if it pulls in/out). Use contact cleaner on the pins of the TP-63 wand, headshell pins, and on the RCA terminals. If none of this helps, start considering TT cable replacement - and/or using a different cart.
 
Thank you for answering. The antiskate should be set correct. I made sure the stylus is staying in the same position on smooth surface of vinyl, the grooves are catching the stylus. I don't have sockets for RCA, cables are attached. I haven't look inside the turntable yet. I'll start with alignment and cleaning contacts. Isopropyl alcohol is fine for the job? What do you mean by TT cable replacement? Tone arm wires or RCA?
 
The Thorens classic TD tonearm wires are high quality (rumored to had been made by Ortofon), and unless broken, or unprofessionally replaced in the past, there's not much benefit in replacing them. The factory TA leads are generally very good too, but the connections to the stock RCA terminals are notorious, plus the RCA terminals are known to tarnish and deform. It's possible to replace the entire RCA cable, or just re-terminate the stock cable with new RCA plugs. Reflowing the solder joints of all TT wiring, inside the audio connection hub at the bottom can also enhance the audio output and mitigate unforeseen issues.
 
Thanks! So far I realigned the cartridge using "the thorens baereald arc protractor" and made sure antiskate is set correct. The sound is off. Even Spotify sounds much better. Vocals are muted, sound is rather harsh without warmth, low-end is not there. I'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to sound this bad considering the CEC BD-2000 sounded much nicer. For sure the sound was not neutral, it was warmer and fuller sounding. But overall more similar to digital versions, just smoother and richer.

While adjusting the cart I've noticed the green wire is soldered to headshell, is that normal?

The RCA cables were replaced by previous owner. It's possible he just did something wrong there. I'll try to disassemble the turntable over the weekend and resolder the cables. Should I use some special solder? I never soldered anything audio related.
 
Just to clarify, the two turntables have different cartridges on them? If so, can you swap the cartridges over so you're using the new turntable with the old cartridge? That would be a revealing experiment.
 
I'm wondering if there is a phasing issue. If the leads are backwards on the cartridge it will suck the bass right out of it. Imaging also gets goofy, everything gets pushed to the outside with a big hole in the middle. Any chance you have a mono switch, or can try if setting the balance fully one way or the other does anything? If its a phase issue, flipping the mono switch will usually wash the vocals out really bad. Or just shifting the balance one way or the other will bring back some of the bottom end.
 
ChronoSee said:
Hello!
it has new RCA cables with ground attached by previous owner
Click to expand...

It's quite possible the "new" RCA cables have very high capacitance, this would filter much of the low frequencies from the signal and sound as your description.

It's also possible as already mentioned the tonearm wires are not connected properly to the correct pins, please post a picture of the back of the cartridge with wires attached.
 
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rothwellaudio said:
Just to clarify, the two turntables have different cartridges on them? If so, can you swap the cartridges over so you're using the new turntable with the old cartridge? That would be a revealing experiment.
Click to expand...
I would love to do this, unfortunately my thorens headshell is for bottom mounting. It would require drilling holes in the headshell, it's in very good condition, I don't really want to do this. If nothing helps I'll get a new cart, but I've read that with this low mass tonearm the cartridge should have compliance above 20cu. Not sure what it does change, I'm still a rookie.
gadget73 said:
I'm wondering if there is a phasing issue. If the leads are backwards on the cartridge it will suck the bass right out of it. Imaging also gets goofy, everything gets pushed to the outside with a big hole in the middle. Any chance you have a mono switch, or can try if setting the balance fully one way or the other does anything? If its a phase issue, flipping the mono switch will usually wash the vocals out really bad. Or just shifting the balance one way or the other will bring back some of the bottom end.
Click to expand...
I don't have mono option, maybe I will have to option to change the balance. I had to relocate the TT for now, I will check it in the evening.

Sgt Shultz said:
It's quite possible the "new" RCA cables have very high capacitance, this would filter much of the low frequencies from the the signal and sound as your description.

It's also possible as already mentioned the tonearm wires are not connected properly to the correct pins, please post a picture of the back of the cartridge with wires attached.
Click to expand...

Any recommendations for new RCA cables? I'll try this way if nothing helps.
I'm attaching pictures.
 

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ChronoSee said:
I would love to do this, unfortunately my thorens headshell is for bottom mounting. It would require drilling holes in the headshell, it's in very good condition, I don't really want to do this. If nothing helps I'll get a new cart, but I've read that with this low mass tonearm the cartridge should have compliance above 20cu. Not sure what it does change, I'm still a rookie.

I don't have mono option, maybe I will have to option to change the balance. I had to relocate the TT for now, I will check it in the evening.



Any recommendations for new RCA cables? I'll try this way if nothing helps.
I'm attaching pictures.
Click to expand...

Cartridge leads are correct so that's not the issue. Might need to use a multimeter to determine if the RCA connection orientation is correct as the cables were replaced and maybe incorrectly.

Had to do this with my Well Tempered Lab Turntable as the color coding colors had all faded to gray on the cartridge leads lol. Used colored markers to color the wires after determining which was which.
 
Sgt Shultz said:
Cartridge leads are correct so that's not the issue. Might need to use a multimeter to determine if the RCA connection orientation is correct as the cables were replaced and maybe incorrectly.

Had to do this with my Well Tempered Lab Turntable as the color coding colors had all faded to gray on the cartridge leads lol. Used colored markers to color the wires after determining which was which.
Click to expand...
How would I check this or what i'm looking for? Is there any resource I can check to make sure they are correctly soldered?
I'm sorry but, I'm a total rookie, I have done some basic soldering on gameboys, but nothing more.
 
ChronoSee said:
How would I check this or what i'm looking for? Is there any resource I can check to make sure they are correctly soldered?
I'm sorry but, I'm a total rookie, I have done some basic soldering on gameboys, but nothing more.
Click to expand...

Not difficult, using a multimeter set for continuity (ohms) touch one lead to the red cartridge wire, the other lead to the center pin on the corresponding RCA lead out of the table, you should read close to zero ohms and the multimeter will most likely beep to let you know there's continuity. Then check the white wire to the outer barrel of the same lead, you should get the same reading and the audible beep. If not something is amiss.

Please disconnect the leads from the cartridge before performing this task or it will confuse the readings and possibly damage the cart.

Hope this helps
 
gadget73 said:
I'm wondering if there is a phasing issue. If the leads are backwards on the cartridge it will suck the bass right out of it. Imaging also gets goofy, everything gets pushed to the outside with a big hole in the middle. Any chance you have a mono switch, or can try if setting the balance fully one way or the other does anything? If its a phase issue, flipping the mono switch will usually wash the vocals out really bad. Or just shifting the balance one way or the other will bring back some of the bottom end.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I'm unable to switch to mono or change the balance. I would have to take the TT to a friend who has a proper Apm. If it's a phasing issue how can I check it or fix it?

It all just sounds weird, sound is muddy, high tones have some lower frequencies to them, lower tones aren't there, vocals are toned back. There are some low frequencies but not in places they are supposed to be.
 
Sgt Shultz said:
Not difficult, using a multimeter set for continuity (ohms) touch one lead to the red cartridge wire, the other lead to the center pin on the corresponding RCA lead out of the table, you should read close to zero ohms and the multimeter will most likely beep to let you know there's continuity. Then check the white wire to the outer barrel of the same lead, you should get the same reading and the audible beep. If not something is amiss.

Please disconnect the leads from the cartridge before performing this task or it will confuse the readings and possibly damage the cart.

Hope this helps
Click to expand...
Yes! Thank you, that was exactly what I needed to know :). Should I disconnect the TT from outlet?
 
Sgt Shultz said:
Not difficult, using a multimeter set for continuity (ohms) touch one lead to the red cartridge wire, the other lead to the center pin on the corresponding RCA lead out of the table, you should read close to zero ohms and the multimeter will most likely beep to let you know there's continuity. Then check the white wire to the outer barrel of the same lead, you should get the same reading and the audible beep. If not something is amiss.

Please disconnect the leads from the cartridge before performing this task or it will confuse the readings and possibly damage the cart.

Hope this helps
Click to expand...
I'm getting a 1.2 ohms when measuring white lead wire to white RCA pin, and nothing when measuring red wire to red RCA pin. When I measure green lead wire to red RCA pin I get 1.4 ohms. But the green wire is soldered to headshell as well. Additionally when the TT is on, and I touch the small arm to move the cart it makes a noise from speakers.
 
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Fishead said:
Sarge, wouldn't that be the GREEN wire to the outer barrel of the red lead?
Click to expand...

You're correct my mistake.

@ChronoSee The red and white wires should be connected to their corresponding center pin, the green and blue to their corresponding outer barrel, if not showing continuity on any one of these check against any of the others to see exactly where it is connected.

The green barrel should pair with the red pin, the blue barrel with the white pin, if different then the simplest solution would be to move the cartridge leads, the signal has no idea nor cares what color the insulation is.
 
@ChronoSee, what Sarge says......I just measured my TD 160 pins and here's what I get:

RED WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = 1.2 ohms
GREEN WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = 1.0 ohms
WHITE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = 1.1 ohms
BLUE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = .8 ohms

This is with ALL THE CLIPS REMOVED from the back of the cartridge (pay attention that you put them back on correctly! When looking at the back of your cartridge where you see the pins, refer to your pictures that you posted above because they are correctly connected there). You don't necessarily need to see exactly the same readings that I have, but you should be close.....e.g. 1.2 ohms might be seen on your table as .9 or 1.4 even and so on.....the point being, you want to make sure that you have a reasonable reading and that you have all the wires connected properly (or whoever rewired the thing did so correctly). The point @gadget73 made above in post #7 is absolutely correct in my experience.....if any of those wires are not connected as they should be, you will have sound just like you are describing!

If you find that all of this has been done correctly and are still getting bad sound, I would next look at the cartridge setup, but let's cross that bridge when/if we get there and need to......isn't this fun?

PS - Can you also take a few pics of the RCA cables, especially the ends with the plugs? Thanks!
 
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