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Thorens TD160 E no low frequencies - Help needed

I'm not familiar with the TP63 but based on the pics the cartridge clips appear to be corroded. It also looks like there's corrosion where the ground wire connects to the headshell.

Grados with their low inductance should be relatively immune to high capacitance load.
 
Sorry, I had to make a few corrections to the resistance readings as they were a bit off.....I got lazy and just took the cartridge off and measured from the sockets to the ends of the RCAs, which leaves out the resistance the headshell wires introduce. Now you will see what touching the actual wire clips that go on the back of the cartridge and corresponding lead on the RCA plugs will very likely show.....

And yes, @WizardWG4......I saw that too but couldn't tell if it was really corrosion or just the nature of the picture. Good eye! If it is corrosion, it will require cleaning with some Deoxit D5.....use a wooden toothpick to get inside those very small openings in the clips and maybe a pipe cleaner soaked in D5 to clean the posts on the back of the cartridge. Be careful NOT TO GET ANY D5 UP AROUND THE CANTILEVER OR STYLUS OR INTO THE CARTRIDGE ITSELF, just want to clean those posts......
 
Fishead said:
@ChronoSee, what Sarge says......I just measured my TD 160 pins and here's what I get:

RED WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = .6 ohms
GREEN WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = .3 ohms
WHITE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = .6 ohms
BLUE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = .3 ohms

This is with ALL THE CLIPS REMOVED from the back of the cartridge (pay attention that you put them back on correctly! When looking at the back of your cartridge where you see the pins, refer to your pictures that you posted above because they are correctly connected there). You don't necessarily need to see exactly the same readings that I have, but you should be close.....e.g. .3 ohms might be seen on your table as .2 or .1 even and so on.....the point being, you want to make sure that you have a reasonable reading and that you have all the wires connected properly (or whoever rewired the thing did so correctly). The point @gadget73 made above in post #7 is absolutely correct in my experience.....if any of those wires are not connected as they should be, you will have sound just like you are describing!

If you find that all of this has been done correctly and are still getting bad sound, I would next look at the cartridge setup, but let's cross that bridge when/if we get there and need to......isn't this fun?
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I LOVE THIS WITH ALL MY BEING :D. I'm very grateful for your help guys, it's nice to be new somewhere and don't feel like a complete idiot trying to figure something out.

RED WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = NOTHING
GREEN WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = NOTHING
WHITE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = .6 ohms
BLUE WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on LEFT CHANNEL RCA connector = .9 ohms

GREEN WIRE ON HEADSHELL to CENTER PIN on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = 1.2 ohms
RED WIRE ON HEADSHELL to OUTER barrel on RIGHT CHANNEL RCA connector = 0.6 ohms

Additionally green wire splits and is connected to the Headshell as well
 
WizardWG4 said:
I'm not familiar with the TP63 but based on the pics the cartridge clips appear to be corroded. It also looks like there's corrosion where the ground wire connects to the headshell.

Grados with their low inductance should be relatively immune to high capacitance load.
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Can I take a small brush and try to wash out corrosion with isopropyl alcohol? It works well with old game boys :D
 
You have found your problem amigo! Your wiring is not correct......whoever did it sent the RIGHT CHANNEL GROUND, the green wire, to the right channel positive and the RIGHT CHANNEL POSITIVE, the red wire, to the right channel ground. Reverse those two wires on the back of your cartridge, that is, where your red wire was, put the green wire and where the green wire was, put the red wire and then try and see if the sound has changed......please report back when you can.

Although, it may still not work because the green wire, now being used as the right channel positive, is connected to the headshell and you might wind up with a lot of hum.......hmmmmmm. It may, unfortunately, require going to the RCA ends and removing the plugs and getting things connecte properly there. This is what I would do and will require some soldering. So, remove the RIGHT CHANNEL RCA plug and you will no doubt see that the green wire is connected to the center pin, or the positive part of the plug. And, the red wire will likely be connected to the outer part of the plug, or the negative part. You will need to reverse these so that the green wire, which is actually used to ground the table, is properly connected so that when you plug it into your phonostage the ground maintains continuity. Hope that made sense.....
 
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Fishead said:
You have found your problem amigo! Your wiring is not correct......whoever did it sent the RIGHT CHANNEL GROUND, the green wire, to the right channel positive and the RIGHT CHANNEL POSITIVE, the red wire, to the right channel ground. Reverse those two wires on the back of your cartridge, that is, where your red wire was, put the green wire and where the green wire was, put the red wire and then try and see if the sound has changed......please report back when you can.
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I'm on it Sir. The green wire being connected directly to headshell isn't a issue? You can see it on picture of the headshell I've sent before.
 
the green to the headshell is for shielding. It really ought to be connected to one of the signal negative leads. I think your better fix here is to flip the wires inside the base of the unit. If you flip them at the cartridge, the headshell itself will be tied to signal positive and I suspect you may have hum problems.

a different not quite right fix but one I think will work as a quick and dirty check though, flip the blue and white wires. Both end up "backwards" but they aren't different phase relative to one another.
 
Yippee!!! Glad it worked, however @gadget73 speaks the truth! To do this correctly, the connections should be properly made at the RCA plug that is not correctly wired. My hunch is that the wires are correct to the block inside the unit (but one should check) and that the mistake was when the RCAs were replaced. Easy enough to see though, just take the bottom of the table off and follow the wires to the block. There you will see if all is as it should be from the headshell and from the block to the RCA connector. Make the necessary changes and you will be properly set!
 
Fishead said:
Yippee!!! Glad it worked, however @gadget73 speaks the truth! To do this correctly, the connections should be properly made at the RCA plug that is not correctly wired.
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I'll fix it correctly tomorrow. I assume it is safe to finally sit and have a listen? :)
gadget73 said:
the green to the headshell is for shielding. It really ought to be connected to one of the signal negative leads. I think your better fix here is to flip the wires inside the base of the unit. If you flip them at the cartridge, the headshell itself will be tied to signal positive and I suspect you may have hum problems.

a different not quite right fix but one I think will work as a quick and dirty check though, flip the blue and white wires. Both end up "backwards" but they aren't different phase relative to one another.
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There is no hum but when I move the headshell by the small arm it sends a sound to speakers. Maybe some noise in higher frequencies and little high pitch distortion.


I have some aditional questions if someone wants to help :)
- should I buy new RCA cables and change the lead wire connectors? The value of ohms is all over the place.
- any tips on setting the impedance on Pro-Ject Tube Box S2? or should I just do it by trial and error?
- any recommendations for bottom mounted high compliance cart? Grado in combination with this preamp has bit to much low end for my taste it's getting a bit muffled.
 
UNPLUG YOUR TABLE BEFORE DOING ANY OF THIS!!! AGAIN, UNPLUG YOUR TABLE BEFORE DOING ANY OF THIS!!! IF YOU DON'T AND YOU PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE WRONG PLACE, YOU WILL VERY LIKELY GET SHOCKED AND IT COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS, POSSIBLY LETHAL!!!!

I would say let's get the connections all done properly and then re-evaluate. You ask some good questions and the things you are doing now may indeed answer some, if not all of them.

Here's a website that will show you a lot of stuff about the TD 160:


And, here is a photo of the inside of your table......or very similar depending on which make you have:


Another example, this one being the MK II:


In this picture, all those wires to the top right are your mains......UNPLUG YOUR TABLE BEFORE DOING ANY OF THIS!!! AGAIN, UNPLUG YOUR TABLE BEFORE DOING ANY OF THIS!!! IF YOU DON'T AND YOU PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE WRONG PLACE, YOU WILL VERY LIKELY GET SHOCKED AND IT COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS, POSSIBLY LETHAL!!!!

If you see the two plastic "boxes" at the top in the first picture? (If not, just follow the wires that come from the bottom of your tonearm, there will be a box of some sort where the terminals are located. Might be right at the base of the tonearm rather than a bit removed as the one in the picture). The left box has the tonearm wires coming in to it and if you take that screw in the middle of the box out, the box will lift off and then you can see how the connections were made. That is, if the wires coming from the tonearm were connected to the wrong terminals, or if the wires going out to the RCAs were made incorrectly just by following the wires from the tonearm. The red wire should be attached so that the positive (center) wire to the right channel RCA meets it at the block. The green wire, which is the grounding wire and the left channel negative, should be connected in a way that it meets the RCA negative wire, the one that goes to the outer part of the right channel RCA plug. The white wire should be connected so that it meets at the block with the positive wire to the left channel RCA connector and the blue wire should be connected at the block so that it meets with the left channel RCA negative wire, the one that goes to the outer part of the RCA plug.

Note: be careful when soldering at the terminal block. It is plastic and too much heat will start to melt the block itself so work quickly, putting some flux right on the connection you are trying to unsolder/solder which will help to get it to melt the solder. Just a word of caution.....
 
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Replace or re-wire the leads is your call. Mostly depends on what they are. If its something of halfway decent quality I'd be fine with keeping them, just fix the wiring issue. Also helpful if you know what they are so you can figure out the capacitence per foot. That will be part of the cartridge loading. If you're replacing them, the usual advice is to go with something that is fairly low capacitence per foot. You can always add more at the phono stage, can't take it away though.

as for loading, generally you want to look up what the cartridge calls for. Figure out what the cables add to the mix, then at the phono amp end, add in however much is needed to get the loading to what the cartridge calls for. You can play with it from there but manufacturer's spec is a good place to start. Looks like at a minimum your phono stage adds 47pf to whatever the cables add.

Leave all the resistance ones set to off, thats for LOMC stuff. You want this loaded to 47k.

for whatever it may be worth to you, my TD-160 runs it's original cables from the 70s, just with new ends installed.
 
ChronoSee said:
Can I take a small brush and try to wash out corrosion with isopropyl alcohol? It works well with old game boys :D
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Not really recommended.....you need something that will neutralize the corrosion (which is like rust in a way, only on electronics) and IPA in my experience does a good job of cleaning, but not removing oxidation. Others may chime in about this, just my 2 cents.....get some Deoxit D5 and you will be good.....
 
gadget73 said:
Replace or re-wire the leads is your call. Mostly depends on what they are. If its something of halfway decent quality I'd be fine with keeping them, just fix the wiring issue. Also helpful if you know what they are so you can figure out the capacitence per foot. That will be part of the cartridge loading. If you're replacing them, the usual advice is to go with something that is fairly low capacitence per foot. You can always add more at the phono stage, can't take it away though.

as for loading, generally you want to look up what the cartridge calls for. Figure out what the cables add to the mix, then at the phono amp end, add in however much is needed to get the loading to what the cartridge calls for. You can play with it from there but manufacturer's spec is a good place to start. Looks like at a minimum your phono stage adds 47pf to whatever the cables add.

Leave all the resistance ones set to off, thats for LOMC stuff. You want this loaded to 47k.

for whatever it may be worth to you, my TD-160 runs it's original cables from the 70s, just with new ends installed.
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So if I understand correctly I should only adjust the "pf" switches.
Grado lists anywhere between 100-500 pf, I have it set on 147 pf for now. I will test other settings, but as far as I know I shouldn't turn on and off the Tube Preamp in short succession. So I'll try different setting tomorrow.
Is there a way to measure capacitance of cables?
Fishead said:
Not really recommended.....you need something that will neutralize the corrosion (which is like rust in a way, only on electronics) and IPA in my experience does a good job of cleaning, but not removing oxidation. Others may chime in about this, just my 2 cents.....get some Deoxit D5 and you will be good.....
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I'm from Europe so Deoxit D5 is not available in my region, but I will find something similar here. Or I'll order new connectors, that should be a good solution as well, right?

@Fishead Thank you so much for the instruction! I'll make sure to follow it tomorrow.

General question, I'm listening to some records and in some tracks my speakers can't handle the amount of bass produced by the TT. My speakers are rated for 56Hz (I don't have a sub). It seems like they try to reproduce frequencies they can't handle and give out disstorted rumble. Is not very prominent but it's there.
It haven't happen on my previous TT, Is that a combination of cart, phono stage? Or something here is at fault?
 
For now, turn down the bass on your preamplifier, or the volume until it is gone. Or, if you have a subsonic filter on the preamp, turn that on to keep those subsonic frequencies out of the signal. That is what is causing your woofers to "flap," and will more than likely take some more investigating to resolve.

I know, less bass is what you originally had an issue with, but things are sounding a lot better already so let's be patient and tackle one thing at a time. This condition can damage your woofers so be forewarned!!

Often, the turntable placed on a wall shelf that decouples it from the floor, which is where much of that subsonic (but not all.....) frequency/energy is coming from, can solve the problem. The Thorens spring suspended tables are kind of known to be very susceptible to such stuff.....footfalls are also common if you have springy floors. If you are on a concrete floor, that will help but it can then still be a mismatch between cartridge and tonearm but not for certain either.

As said, there are many variables to consider when you run into the subsonic flapping woofer problem and we'll tackle this when you have everything wired correctly. Before that, we're just guessing so might as well solve the problems we've already identified and then move forward.
 
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ChronoSee said:
I'm from Europe so Deoxit D5 is not available in my region
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'Servisol Super 10' is available in Europe. With isopropyl alcohol being the primary solvent in many commercial products, I often use a mix of WD-40 and IPA to wash out pots and trimmers, as well as to clean contacts and circuit boards. It's required in large portions and it's way more affordable than DeOxit D5, or any half decent commercially available contact cleaner in a can.
ChronoSee said:
Is that a combination of cart, phono stage? Or something here is at fault?
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It's typically tonearm/cart and effective mass related. The phenomenon is known as 'sub-sonics', and the essence of it is the speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies that we can't hear. The woofers go wild with rapid and extensive excursion - but nothing is heard.
With 56Hz being the lower limit of your speakers, this is no longer in the sub-sonic (<20Hz) range, but the source is the same. You're simply hearing rumble that shouldn't be there. Low frequencies are energetic and take up much of the amp's energy, often degrading other frequencies reproduction. It's really undesireable.

Make sure the Thorens suspension is optimized, isolate the turntable from vibrations, give the TT a solid, massive, firm base, or try to take it further away from the speakers to mitigate feedback.
 
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tnsilver said:
'Servisol Super 10' is available in Europe. With isopropyl alcohol being the primary solvent in many commercial products, I often use a mix of WD-40 and IPA to wash out pots and trimmers, as well as to clean contacts and circuit boards. It's required in large portions and it's way more affordable than DeOxit D5, or any half decent commercially available contact cleaner in a can.

It's typically tonearm/cart and effective mass related. The phenomenon is known as 'sub-sonics', and the essence of it is the speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies that we can't hear. The woofers go wild with rapid and extensive excursion - but nothing is heard.
With 56Hz being the lower limit of your speakers, this is no longer in the sub-sonic (<20Hz) range, but the source is the same. You're simply hearing rumble that shouldn't be there. Low frequencies are energetic and take up much of the amp's energy, often degrading other frequencies reproduction. It's really undesireable.

Make sure the Thorens suspension is optimized, isolate the turntable from vibrations, give the TT a solid, massive, firm base, or try to take it further away from the speakers to mitigate feedback.
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Thanks! For now it was sitting right in front of the speakers. I have to order longer RCA, my previous TT had DIN5 connection so I used extension to connect to the pre amp and had very short RCAs.

Is there a downside for running long RCA from phono stage to speakers? I want to order "Melodika Purple Rain MD2R25" 2,5m long. Or do you guys have something cheaper to recommend?

The phono stage has subsonic filter on, what do you mean by optimizing the suspension? It seems to work fine, but I don't know anything about it :).
 
You don't want to increase the length of the RCAs that are coming out of your turntable. Instead, move your phonostage close enough to the turntable that the length of the current RCAs is sufficient. Then, you can get longer RCAs to go from your phonostage to your preamp/amp/receiver. Can you please describe the components in your system, all of them? Also, yeah, turntable right in front of the speaker is a disaster waiting to happen. You want the turntable as far away as possible from the speakers and isolated, as in a very solid base as @tnsilver has suggested or better, I think, a wall shelf that decouples it from the floor as I previously suggested. But for now, just get the turntable away from the speaker! That will help a bunch. And, the subsonic filter on your phonostage put in the ON position should take care of everything but, ideally, you would want to deal with the subsonic frequency issue through isolation of the turntable. It's complicated, I know, but you will get there amigo.....
 
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