Three prong vs two.

[peja11]

................. Yep neutral and ground are one and the same for 120. Each leg of the incoming 240 referenced to ground is 120. Dont need to get out a slide rule to figure that out!.............

I agree with what you are saying in context but the neutral and ground are two different animals. A neutral/white wire is a grounded conductor required for return path to ground to complete a circuit. A ground/green wire is a grounding conductor which provides an alternate path to ground for "stray" voltage from a circuit. Both are electrically connected to the same place in a panel. In an ideal world a grounding conductor/green wire would never have current on it.

I know the above is mostly electrical semantics. You would be amazed over the years how many circuits I've run across that had the green as a neutral or green and neutral in parallel with current on both. Yikes. Gotta love the DIY'ers

 

[Oldsansui441]

The simple fact of the matter is that most vintage 70s gear was poorly wired. It was a wild-west of standards around the world and the US sold gear had non-polarised plugs, single pole switches, death-caps to chassis and very little if any quality insulation or correct air gaps for primary wiring and little or no protection for live-chassis situations.

A number of vintage pieces l have worked on have had the neutral switched from the factory, with the live side fused. I have also seen the neutral side fused from the factory. The thing l don't get is if all of this is such a safety hazard then shouldn't governments make it mandatory to have these issues on the older gear rectified? And what about the millions of people that have been using these units for the last 45 years.

Off topic but similar scenario, I was a MB tech for many years and one item that always puzzled me was why in Aus it has never been necessary to fit catalytic converters to pre 86 leaded vehicles, this is also a safety hazard IMHO. Think l would rather breath the old leaded than unleaded with no cat thanks .

 

[biscuithead]

A number of vintage pieces l have worked on have had the neutral switched from the factory, with the live side fused. I have also seen the neutral side fused from the factory. The thing l don't get is if all of this is such a safety hazard then shouldn't governments make it mandatory to have these issues on the older gear rectified? And what about the millions of people that have been using these units for the last 45 years.

Off topic but similar scenario, I was a MB tech for many years and one item that always puzzled me was why in Aus it has never been necessary to fit catalytic converters to pre 86 leaded vehicles, this is also a safety hazard IMHO. Think l would rather breath the old leaded than unleaded with no cat thanks .

Trying to mandate all old electronics to be brought up to current UL listings and codes would be a hard thing to police. Maybe an agency that comes and knocks on your door for an electronics inspection . I want to be on that agency ... “ sorry mr. Smith, all of your vintage Audio must be confiscated “ ...
Wow! What a collection that would be!

 

[Oldsansui441]

Trying to mandate all old electronics to be brought up to current UL listings and codes would be a hard thing to police

Very true, i'm not actually suggesting we need to go this far but this topic comes up often and something is either safe or it isn't, if the latter and people are at risk then what realistically should or could be done?

Take an old house for example, if in original untouched condition one can live in as is with the original wiring intact. If however that same house is renovated/restored i'm certain it would have to be rewired and bought up to current code. Does this mean all residents in old original homes are at risk with the original wiring, even if in good condition?

 

[GChief]

Very true, i'm not actually suggesting we need to go this far but this topic comes up often and something is either safe or it isn't, if the latter and people are at risk then what realistically should or could be done?

Take an old house for example, if in original untouched condition one can live in as is with the original wiring intact. If however that same house is renovated/restored i'm certain it would have to be rewired and bought up to current code. Does this mean all residents in old original homes are at risk with the original wiring, even if in good condition?

I make the same point on most of these "wiring" threads, if it was so unsafe then home electronics would have been murdering people by the millions 60yrs ago . What I think is sad is that we don't let Darwinism work, we have regulated it out of existence.

 

[biscuithead]

Very true, i'm not actually suggesting we need to go this far but this topic comes up often and something is either safe or it isn't, if the latter and people are at risk then what realistically should or could be done?

Take an old house for example, if in original untouched condition one can live in as is with the original wiring intact. If however that same house is renovated/restored i'm certain it would have to be rewired and bought up to current code. Does this mean all residents in old original homes are at risk with the original wiring, even if in good condition?

Well, I’m an Electrician. I’ll attempt to answer this.

When an older house is sold, a home inspection should reveal code deficiencies. These deficiencies are usually required to be fixed before the home is sold. Is this done for your/our safety? ... not really, it is done to litigiously protect the money lender.

*

If I am contracted to install a hot-tub in someone’s home, and I have to move around circuits in a panel, I’m responsible for updating everything I touch. Is this done because the house might burn down, no. It it done because I don’t want to be sued for an old problem that I didn’t cause but because I last touched it I’m to be blamed.

*

I’m afraid that there is far more litigious reasons to code compliance than safety. You could argue that safety must be monitized, in order to get movement... and there is something to that.

 

[Oldsansui441]

What I think is sad is that we don't let Darwinism work, we have regulated it out of existence.

What are you suggesting, we remove any safety warning labels and let nature take it's course .

When an older house is sold, a home inspection should reveal code deficiencies. These deficiencies are usually required to be fixed before the home is sold. Is this done for your/our safety? ... not really, it is done to litigiously protect the money lender.

*

If I am contracted to install a hot-tub in someone’s home, and I have to move around circuits in a panel, I’m responsible for updating everything I touch. Is this done because the house might burn down, no. It it done because I don’t want to be sued for an old problem that I didn’t cause but because I last touched it I’m to be blamed.

*

I’m afraid that there is far more litigious reasons to code compliance than safety. You could argue that safety must be monitized, in order to get movement... and there is something to that.

That is great info, thank you for sharing.

 

[GChief]

What are you suggesting, we remove any safety warning labels and let nature take it's course .

Pretty much, most are common sense. If you don’t have enough not to kill yourself you should be contributing to the gene pool.

 

[Oldsansui441]

While l totally agree common sense is less common than ever these days (and annoyingly so), l guess even these people can't be held responsible if they are using the equipment as intended but still possibly taking on a safety risk because of obsolete factory wiring practices?

 

[GChief]

still possibly taking on a safety risk because of obsolete factory wiring practices?

But if your going to dig in to old gear you need to do your due diligence and know all the safety concerns. I work on shipboard generators and switchgear everyday. I know what I need to be aware of before I stick my d&$@ skinners in any of them.

 

[Oldsansui441]

But if your going to dig in to old gear you need to do your due diligence and know all the safety concerns. I work on shipboard generators and switchgear everyday. I know what I need to be aware of before I stick my d&$@ skinners in any of them.

Very true but l guess l am more referring to the end user NOT us who are working on them. Here is another example, an Akai AA-1050 l am currently working on. As can be clearly seen, it has always been wired with the neutral being switched (l have marked the power switch wires). No one has ever modified or tampered with this unit.

 

[Oldsansui441]

Oh and another thing, what a total waste of time the test and tag thing is here in Aus, don't know if you other guys and girls have a similar scheme in your prospective countries. I have had units that would pass an external test and tag procedure using the required tester but upon opening up the unit have found mains wiring twisted together and a bit of insulation tape used .

 

[peja11]

Pretty much, most are common sense. If you don’t have enough not to kill yourself you should be contributing to the gene pool.

Natural selection has worked pretty well since.......before man had sense.