Three-Way Horn System w/ PRV D2200Ph Midrange & ZXPC 18x10 Horn

[ClaudeJ1]

What would a Q-SYS enabled setup look like? I went on their site and could not really get a handle on what would be used in a home environment to bi/tri amp a speaker setup.

The old adage "Perfect is the Enemy of Good" comes to mind.
Why seek increase the complication of a system beyond what is working so well for you and Chris Askew?
Just because one guy on the internet says so, and their minions chime in with their verbal support?
Words are cheap, on the internet, and "opinions" without supporting DATA can be generated faster than ever with AI.

 

[Daveintn]

My guess is that you're going to be most interested in a PC-based FIR/multi-amplifier solution. A fairly straightforward discussion of the pros/cons of the subject can be found here:

General discussion/planning for "fully digital" DIY speaker - DAC boards, protocols, interfaces etc

The most pertinent comment I read there seems to address the reason to go to Q-SYS -specific hardware (and not a very strong case for home hi-fi, I might add):



Chris

Great to see you posting here Chris and a fascinating topic. Time moves on and I have a rack of pro gear I cant give away here. These sound guys now get a smart phone out and stand in the middle of a room and dial everything in.

 

[Cask05]

These sound guys now get a smart phone out and stand in the middle of a room and dial everything in.

Actually. I'm not one of "those guys" with the cellphone-for-everything...at least not yet.

Great to see you posting here Chris and a fascinating topic.

Thanks. Actually, I was replying to a prompt that Gigantic posted and then another from rebos123. I've actually got to spend a little more time on FIR filtering. My time's been pretty diluted lately just recovering from a very difficult summer. It's good to have three active dogs to keep me out of my chair. I've actually been spending my time demastering and writing more into that book on audio that I started. I find that these kind of posts sometimes helps me to generate material for the book.

I've also been watching a new 77" LG OLED at home since this past spring (4K). With Amazon discounts built up over the years (which I actually didn't know were there until hitting "check out"), the new 77" OLED screen came in at just under $2K. I put on a 4K disc of the movie "1917" this week and I found that I couldn't turn it off. The colors were "gobsmackingly beautiful"...even though the movie's plot was pretty grim.

Chris

 

[Gigantic]

My guess is that you're going to be most interested in a PC-based FIR/multi-amplifier solution. A fairly straightforward discussion of the pros/cons of the subject can be found here:

General discussion/planning for "fully digital" DIY speaker - DAC boards, protocols, interfaces etc

The most pertinent comment I read there seems to address the reason to go to Q-SYS -specific hardware (and not a very strong case for home hi-fi, I might add):



Chris

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I looked into Camilla DSP and while I already had most of the hardware necessary for it already, most critically, an 8 channel ADC. I ultimately concluded that it wasn't going to work well for my configuration. Namely, my setup uses my laptop as a source for digital files and srtreaming, so I'd need an additional computer. That in and of itself ins't a dealbreaker, a Raspberry Pi is inexpensive enough and I've received an offer of a preconfigured disc image, so it would be almost plug and play. however, I'm an oddball in that I don't have a television in my house and no room on my credenza for a monitor, nor do I want one cluttering up the space. Lastly, I'm an aging dog who would rather maximize the tricks I know than learn new ones. I don't mind learning a new gui based program, but command line software like Camilla DSP is a bridge too far. This is driven by a mixture of impatience, adhd, dyslexia and anxiety; I'm sure that ultimately, I could learn this, but at this point, I don't want to. Frankly, as someone who remains new to the hobby, mastering the information around getting the crossover frequency, amplitude, delay and phase sorted out, computer hardware configuration and learning command line software is all a bit much, so my parsimonious inclinations are outweighed by my desire for relative convenience. That's not to say that I've pulled it out entirely, but I'd rather grok one semi-complex set of concepts before I dive headlong into another, semi-related trove of information.

I understand my limitations. A device that would allow me to dial everything in from my iPad would be ideal for me, but the upshot of repeatedly beating my head against the wall as I’ve been doing so far, is that eventually, I learn a couple things, if not the entirety of the situation.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

I've also been watching a new 77" LG OLED at home since this past spring (4K). With Amazon discounts built up over the years (which I actually didn't know were there until hitting "check out"), the new 77" OLED screen came in at just under $2K. I put on a 4K disc of the movie "1917" this week and I found that I couldn't turn it off. The colors were "gobsmackingly beautiful"...even though the movie's plot was pretty grim.

Chris

Congrats and Welcome to my Video World, Chris.
Mine was $5,500 at "best buy" 5-6 years ago. Now it's at Costco for Half that amount. Got mine delivered to my door for a shade over 4 Kilobucks (4K for 4K? lol) . A few people asked why I didn't wait for prices to come down further?
If I look at the $28.99/month of Enjoyment that it cost me in "Effective Rent" (so far since I'm not selling it), I'm still ahead of the game.
It's "top of the tech Self Lit Pixels" nature of the display allowed me to move my smaller 55" OLED to Photoshop duties as a 4K monitor for my laptop Image Editor, with variable split screen software from LG.
So like your progressive improvements to your U-Jube/MEH/Spud setup with surround trimmings, you will want to rewatch all your older movies with your newfound Visual Clarity to match your Sound, as long as your player can UpRez to 4K!
Also, to those who are contemplating the 83" version, you can get the same impact by moving the 77" a Half a Foot closer to you and save over $1,000 so you can buy a better 4K blue ray with Uprezzing features and all modern HDR features.
I freeze framed "The Greatest Showman" movie. Fantastic HD color, sharpness, and Dolby Atmos SOUND. I played that scene 6 times!! I'm amazed at how well the real singer was able to put her fantastic voice to match the Mouth inflections of Rebecca Ferguson (a real Swede too) that played Jenny Lind, the "Swedish Nightingale." Goosebumps and tears for sure!!!

Viewed from my slightly left of center Sweet Spot shown below.
Danley TH-50 subs to be double rotated to have mouths forward today to use dead space behind the 77 to make more in front...................it's raining.

 

[Cask05]

...Lastly, I'm an aging dog who would rather maximize the tricks I know than learn new ones. I don't mind learning a new gui based program, but command line software like Camilla DSP is a bridge too far. This is driven by a mixture of impatience, adhd, dyslexia and anxiety; I'm sure that ultimately, I could learn this, but at this point, I don't want to...

I understand about CamillaDSP and command-line software. I had to use many command-line-oriented OS's and programming languages along the way...far too many. Those are not good memories.

...you will want to rewatch all your older movies with your newfound Visual Clarity to match your Sound!

One of the most disappointing things I've found is that if one doesn't care for Marvel Comics-type movies, ~95% of movie catalog entries in native 4K format seem to disappear. So while I see the potential beauty of this format in movies like 1917, they're not making Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre period pieces in native 4K format nowadays, as well as other movie genres that I actually do watch. Bummer.

Chris

 

[Wirrunna]

CamillaDSP - here is the documentation of my implementation. https://github.com/wirrunna . Start with "an implementation" then "Build a config".
It is a work in progress as I update the screen shots for the latest release. I have added screen shots of how the CamillaDSP GUI will import REW filters and rePhase FIR files.
The offer of a working copy of my SD card via Google drive download stands - PM me if you want one.

Re FIR filter taps, I settled on 4096 taps per channel as a compromise between accuracy and latency. 8192 taps added too many msecs to justify the tweak in accuracy. Using rePhase is documented in steps 2 an 4 of building a config. The complicated part is getting the REW phase measurement into rePhase.

 

[TheAbide]

Couple updates for you gents!

First off it's about time for my 5 millionth round of eq myself, I've finally started the tops. The FIR windowing the sharc chip in the PK(and if I had to guess probably the Thomann) works ok. But youve really gotta test in rew to see what it's doing. And 512 taps isn't gonna get you anywhere to fixing the bass bin where you need it most. I have had success uploading files from rephase into it though. My biggest gripe is manually entering any peqs/shelf's/allpasses. Commandline would be much preferable to this click every single time to make an adjustment UI. I would definitely just rather generate and upload like you can with a minidsp though!
I've managed to spread some of the fun around with the guy that got me into the vintage Klipsch stuff years ago. He's got my KPTs in his garage so we did some tops. They should sound great once the decay time in there is less than a minute


I had him buy prv horns off parts express instead of ebay. Well they updated the molds or something. Or the zxpc guy got the old prv molds. Either way the pic on PE matches what we all have and the ones he was sent look much nicer



My main boxes are pretty much done. Just need to router the edges to match the FH1s, drill a ton of screw holes, sand, and probably stain black. I also printed some quick and dirty tweeter stands that sit right up front and have a 5° tilt down that should meet the mid right at the couch. Still a lot of work to go but I can see a milestone ahead.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

My main boxes are pretty much done. Just need to router the edges to match the FH1s, drill a ton of screw holes, sand, and probably stain black. I also printed some quick and dirty tweeter stands that sit right up front and have a 5° tilt down that should meet the mid right at the couch. Still a lot of work to go but I can see a milestone ahead.

The FH-1's are, essentially, 3 ft. long horns that get down to 80 Hz. like the Edgarhorn Titan II's. Except, they are folded twice vs. the straight axis of the Titans, where you can see the 10x10" throat and the woofer cone itself.
There are fewer peaks and troughs in the Titans vs. the FH-1's, caused by the folds.
Smoothing out the response in the FH-1's is easy and worth it to get the incredible TRANSIENTS in the most Detailed area of bass, up past Middle C and to the A note.
With a high bl woofer (large magnet, light cone) there's a way more detailed top end in the FH-1 to hand off to those Mid horns at 400 Hz.
Adding some Monster Drivers 18's in reflex boxes adds sub bass from 80 on down to wiggle your calf muscles when the Music or Movie has that content.
This is where you need the Kilowatt of power to get that desirable "Subterranean bass."
You are on the right path so Sonic Nirvana.
Me likey!!

 

[ClaudeJ1]

So while I see the potential beauty of this format in movies like 1917, they're not making Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre period pieces in native 4K format nowadays, as well as other movie genres that I actually do watch. Bummer.

Many classic films have been "digitized" to 4K resolution. If the Cinemascope or similar formats used bigger film stock, even 60 years ago, with the sound track preserved, the results are still Amazing.
I just got "Lawrence of Arabia," which details an important piece of history (mostly ignored), as well as "2001, A Space Odyssey."
Stanley Kubrick did an incredible job on all the special effects on FILM, inspiring all the modern stuff that's become easier to do with Computer Graphics. However the Story is always more important than the CG!
My 4K Modern benchmark is still "Gemini Man" directed by Ang Lee. Color, resolution, CG, sound, all of it! Technically, anything shot on Alexa 65 cameras will test the resolve of your 77" OLED and show you how really great it is. SOTA!

 

[TheAbide]

Adding some Monster Drivers 18's in reflex boxes adds sub bass from 80 on down to wiggle your calf muscles when the Music or Movie has that content.
This is where you need the Kilowatt of power to get that desirable "Subterranean bass."
You are on the right path so Sonic Nirvana.
Me likey!!

Yep there's 4 Marty subs I've found used over the last year or two with UM18s in here now. With a crown 2502 and nu6000 powering them. Its very evenly flat across the couch down to about 14hz. I'm hoping the extension from the tops will help blend the mains with the subs.

I've been enjoying watching all the great 80s and 90s action stuff that I never got a theater experience with. I only know those movies censored with commercial breaks on the speakers of a maybe 30" CRT on USA or FX. And for some of these that's like having never actually seen the movie.

Meant to mention The Greatest Showman has been on my to watch list for a minute. Maybe that'll be the first when I finish this stage

 

[ericc129]

I was about to reorder my zxpc horns (the prv version since the throat of my horns have irregularities in them and they look cheaper)....Anyway, I couldn't help myself and wondered if anyone had tried JBL/Selenium Horns vs the ZXPC? I specifically snagged the HC-56-25 horn in this pic below. They were like 20 bucks being sold from a guy who inherited boxes of unopened JBL gear, etc. He had other ones which would fit the 2 inch PRV driver, but I figured I'd snag the model I did, because I could just attach my K55V driver (this dang hobby.....but yeah, going full circle a bit, although it's the perfect width of my bass cabinet motorboard, and I couldn't help but try them out)...I had just not seen these horns before for some reason......otherwise it's back to the zxpc and maybe adding my own mumps, as time allows.

 

[ericc129]

oh FWIW, min fre is 400HZ, but made to run from 4/500HZ to where higher than I cross my DE10 LMAUL tweeter, with the phenolic jbl driver.
ANyway, here's a sheet with the various horns that seem to hit that magical 500Hz mark. I need to sell excess horns instead of buying more
but y aknow how it is....but 12 inches depth and 22.5 inch wide and rarely fitting a k55 screw on driver(and having a really wide coverage). Plus, people had the remaining in their carts, etc. I figure they can be used with my other franken klipsch speakers for surrounds, if need be.

 

[THD+N]

@ericc129 can you take a full picture of that Selenium Horn spec sheet and upload?

 

[ericc129]

 

[ericc129]

Sorry, I had to use the copy/paste function; it was the only way to get em uploaded. But yeah, you know how we were basically auditioning and searching for any and all cornscala level worthy horns, during the same time; And I found it weird that I never stumbled upon this horn (especially as I tended to favor the biradial format horns, even that huge Community 2 inch horn). I would have finally completed my top portion a couple weeks ago, but got the itch to upgrade my Pass Amp Camp Amps, since esp when modified and then used as parallel monoblocks, they sound way too good than they have a right to with our super efficient horn speakers. Anyway, I accidentally stumbled upon a guy selling pairs of these selenium horns for $18.00 an pulled the trigger without even thinking. The last thing I needed was another pair of horns. I seriously need to sell off all my extra auditioned horns and amplifiers that the ACAs will replace, but couldn't help myself (It's the thing I hate about this obsession/hobby....I can never seem to leave a "well, what if I used these instead" situation alone.....it would eat at me, no matter how well the 18x10 sounds. It is bizarre that they are exactly 22.5inches wide, considering my bottom bass baffles are exactly that wide, I believe. So, adding 3/4 inch wide ply for the side of a top cabinet will be an identical fit, with no need for a front baffle if I stay with the decision to free stand the MAHL tweeter on top. Thats assuming I decide to not fill and smooth out the rear fiberglass portion, and/or decide to just have this horn freestanding as well. In any case, I suppose we will know once I test them out first. I was really hoping to just use some putty, then sand out the 18x10 with diy mumps (although, thats not really needed; but figured I'd try that since mine are the zxpc variety and the mold of the throat isn't perfect by any means in comparison to the PRV version's quality.....therefor why not go ahead and try adding mumps?) but of course I ran into these. TBH, there's so many horns available right now and in better price ranges than 2yrs ago (ie. I almost even pulled the trigger on JBL 511b horns as a pair of em with drivers by eminence for $199 w/ free shipping!!) but went for the unknown.

I need to find pics of the 3d printed horns being made right now by the guy in Brazil. While I have no idea how they measure, he makes versions of various multicell horns and adapters for the k55v size, up to the 2 inch prv driver. Either way, it shows great promise for the future. I was, in fact going to buy his 15 inch wide, 10 horn cell version, but accidentally ran into these dang horns and bought em before even thinking about it.

 

[ericc129]

FYI: the brazil horns

 

[ericc129]

But yeah, it was either that one or this particular one because it is a 400HZ version (but went with the selenium for now)

 

[ericc129]

I also like how the selenium top lip extends a bit more to control the vertical wave expansion, but again.....we shall see. I fried my minidsp last week, but I suppose I could still try and post measurements eventually due to the state/mess of my system atm. But weird how I've never seen these mentioned before in a cornscala thread or 500Hz horn thread before and how difficult it was to find info. I don't even know how old they are......I think there is some info on the jbl website, but I just assumed that they are all possibly known by a different JBL designation like some weird 9356 horn or something

 

[THD+N]

Any and all measurements are welcome and encouraged!