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True “full range” floorstanding speakers

Good call on the big IMF's - might just be the least expensive way to get really low and accurate bass reproduction (without using a sub).

jblnut
 
jblnut said:
Good call on the big IMF's - might just be the least expensive way to get really low and accurate bass reproduction (without using a sub).

jblnut
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This or the KEF 107's, depending on price. We had a member here @canuckaudiog who had both. I think IMF RSPM MKIV and the KEF 107's. I think he ended up concluding they were a bit of a "draw" for his preferences (don't want to put words in his mouth though). I've never heard IMF speakers but after hearing his impressions of those vs. the 107's, I'd like to!

I've seen the KEF 107's as low as around $1k (unless you get REALLY lucky...I did see one pair around $500 and one around $800)...but I've also seen them as high as $2200.

The only pair of the IMF's I was looking at were $750.

So yeah they may be a tad cheaper than the 107's.

I'd give a hard look at either of those for the $1k or thereabouts range.
 
Hi, like we see it is many monitor's, Polk's, Mcintosh and other's, prices and disponibility are a problem, and shipping (IMF 100 pounds), kef and IMF are Great britain. Big question is the sound you like, not easy task.
 
Pyrrho said:
I am not disputing the idea that low frequencies can, in certain circumstances, give someone a sick stomach.

There is a difference between making something for the purpose of producing low frequencies, and a poorly designed or poorly installed air conditioning unit that accidentally makes noise at such frequencies (that air conditioner might be producing even lower frequencies; I don't suppose you measured what it was doing, did you?). Just like noise at higher frequencies is not the same as music at higher frequencies. You are not claiming that that air conditioner sounded like a pipe organ, are you?
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Agreed, it is not the same. The rumble was undoubtedly much lower than a 16Hz C pedal and sustains continuously rather than just occasionally played.

But, don't think that this can't happen with a pipe organ too. The blower motor has a frequency of about 6 Hz, and if unmuffled, some people could be sensitive to this.
 
Hawkeye83 said:
This or the KEF 107's, depending on price. We had a member here @canuckaudiog who had both. I think IMF RSPM MKIV and the KEF 107's. I think he ended up concluding they were a bit of a "draw" for his preferences (don't want to put words in his mouth though). I've never heard IMF speakers but after hearing his impressions of those vs. the 107's, I'd like to!

I've seen the KEF 107's as low as around $1k (unless you get REALLY lucky...I did see one pair around $500 and one around $800)...but I've also seen them as high as $2200.

The only pair of the IMF's I was looking at were $750.

So yeah they may be a tad cheaper than the 107's.

I'd give a hard look at either of those for the $1k or thereabouts range.
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If we're talking about the bass, they reproduced them quite a bit differently. Both hit low frequencies (though I'd say the KEFs were deeper) quite effectively, but I did find the IMFs to have a more tuneful, natural sounding bass. This was years ago now, but I would say if bass was the concern, I'd probably take the IMFs. However, on the other hand, the KEFs are exceptional, too - and take up a lot less real estate. You couldn't go wrong with either.
 
In February 2005 the television show MythBusters used twelve Meyer Sound 700-HP subwoofers—a model and quantity that has been employed for major rock concerts.[4][5] Normal operating frequency range of the selected subwoofer model was 28 Hz to 150 Hz[6] but the 12 enclosures at MythBusters had been specially modified for deeper bass extension.[7] Roger Schwenke and John Meyer directed the Meyer Sound team in devising a special test rig that would produce very high sound levels at infrasonic frequencies. The subwoofers' tuning ports were blocked and their input cards were altered. The modified cabinets were positioned in an open ring configuration: four stacks of three subwoofers each. Test signals were generated by a SIM 3 audio analyzer, with its software modified to produce infrasonic tones. A Brüel & Kjær sound level analyzer, fed with an attenuated signal from a model 4189 measurement microphone, displayed and recorded sound pressure levels.[7] The hosts on the show tried a series of frequencies as low as 5 Hz, attaining a level of 120 decibels of sound pressure at 9 Hz and up to 153 dB at frequencies above 20 Hz, but the rumored physiological effects did not materialize.[7] The test subjects all reported some physical anxiety and shortness of breath, even a small amount of nausea, but this was dismissed by the hosts, noting that sound at that frequency and intensity moves air rapidly in and out of one's lungs.

The show declared the brown note myth "busted."
 
Honestly, it’s obvious you do not have the funds to get a speaker that fits your needs. I say it with utmost respect, been reading the comments. Within the realm of the normal, near damn impossible.

So I won’t even suggest any speakers, that fall into that category. Imho, your best bet is to go the diy route. You either windup with a turd, or when budgeted right and build right can be a killer speaker.

a good start would be, understanding what it takes to place 20hz in your room. You need, long throw (high xmax) to accommodate, to displace. High wattage, you’ll need to put power into it. Dual voice coil, it gives you options, impedance matching what not. Couple brands I would look into woofers JL Audio, Skar, Sunfire,MTX

Score a nice set of older horns or ribbon tweeters, some nice mid ranges I would go for. Is more refined home audio quality ones. Peerless, vifa,

Yes, car industry! I know some people that don’t get that . But you’ll find woofers there, that are FAR SUPERIOR, to anything “home Audio” brands might carry such as scanspeak,jbl,vifa,peerless,scanspeak what not.

It’s possible...

But set that “can you give me a speaker that does it” idea out of your mind. Ain’t going to happen, least not on a budget.

Just my 5 cents brother
 
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Hi,someone who is looking for a complete monitor who reproduce the full range of classical musics including organ works.What can you ask more than that.Like in a real concert hall,naturally.for me that is what I have reach for and have with my speaker, for me nobody else.
 
Hi,but we listening for the love of musics,I have been fortunate to have a friend who was selling audio components,I have listening many speakers he has at the store and at home. I have a pair of IMF tls 50 before (23hz) , and when he sell the professionnal I bought it (10-16hz) in the 80'.he change for some NHT and magnaplanar.That's choice.
 
Nixxuz said:
Really?

And there is nothing wrong with the Behringer amps. If you need to keep moving the goalposts in order to make it seem like that QSC really is the ONLY option, which was the crux of your argument against doing "expensive" DIY powered subs in the first place, carry on. I've already shown that one amp, tested out independently, can do over 1200wpc @ 8 ohms. Plenty of people have used the NX6000/Inuke6000DSP combo and been very happy with it. And I've shown that dual mono Crowns would give more wattage for for less money, if a person is adverse to using Behringer. I'm guessing it's now down to the aesthetic of having just ONE amp involved? Maybe the color of the amp, or the THD at 1khz, is next?
In any case, anybody who has been reading the thread knows, by this point, that there are plenty of options that aren't as expensive as you claimed they had to be. That was what I wanted to point out, so this conversation is really just spinning wheels, at this point, from my perspective.
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I second your opinion about Behringer amps from 1st hand experience, i was given a Behringer A-500 amp from Audioholics to compare with any 100 to 150 wpc @8 ohm high end amp of my choice ,i ran it against a Mcintosh Mc-7100 and a Mc-150 ,the Behringer A-500s 150 wpc sounded no different than either Mcintosh amp,i bought a 2nd A-500 from guitar center to run both as 300 watt 8 ohm monoblocks ,when ran against 1 of my two Mc-252s the $149 Behringers performed just as well as the Mc-252 ,i liked the Behringer A-500s so much that i bought a total of 5 new models which gave me six 300 watt monoblocks to triamp with for under a grand and i had a ton of fun playing with them ,if i were on a budget and building a system with highly efficient speakers i wouldnt hesitate to use a Behringer amp to drive the speakers ,the transformer alone is worth the cost .
 
Now that I have my Pair of 28's I find I use around 2 to 3 watts most of the time with 20 to 30 watts peaks from Telarc, Sheffield and Reference Recording Labels. Pop records seldom need 10 watts for peaks per channel. Thats at 14 feet. But Classical works and big band cranked up, maybe 100 watt peaks.
 
toddalin said:
When I talked to Rita, she said that the actual components (e.g., capacitors) in the Sunfire physically shake themselves to death from the inside out. I imagine that a "lesser" sub may not subject its internal guts to such pressures/abuse.
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It's not vibration, the electrolytic caps used in Sunfire gear were mostly off-brand garbage that didn't age well.
 
At least six factors that need to be considered when evaluating claims of frequency range:

1. Volume level: Almost any speaker will play 20Hz, just not very loudly. Pad down the rest of the range to match, and voilá! How loud do you need that 20Hz? Look at the equal-loudness curves, that 20Hz needs a pretty high volume to be noticed as a *tone*. And that volume will probably be limited either by power handling or excursion.

2. Duration: related to the power handling mentioned above, and to power *compression*. It might take minutes (or even seconds), but the heating of the voice coil will drastically increase its resistance, and thus the output of the woofer.

3. Cutoff slope: 20Hz at -3dB? -6dB? -10dB? Not everybody specifies the same way, if at all. And is it booming above cutoff? How far down is it at 30Hz? 25Hz? 15Hz? See the equal-loudness contours again...

4. Distortion: When the driver approaches the magnetic or mechanical limits of excursion, distortion shoots way up. That distortion manifests as extra frequencies not in the original source. Once again, equal-loudness means the distortion will be much more audible than the fundamental note! The one bright spot is that our brains can extrapolate a low bass note from higher harmonics, even if we can't directly hear it.

5. Directivity: Not so important for low bass in small rooms, but certainly outdoors. And important for the tactile aspect. For the upper limit, extremely important. After all, how useful is "flat to 30kHz" if everything above 5kHz is delivered on a pencil-width beam?

6. Distance: Easy for any speaker to play even difficult low notes, if your ear is right against it. And also very important for bass tactile sensations.


Even if you had stereo speakers "flat" down to 20Hz, they would make no sense. Whatever is reproducing low bass (below, say, 80Hz) needs to be optimally located to provide the flattest room response. Having two such speakers, you can do that much more easily. However, where those speakers will need to be located for best bass response, will probably be nowhere near where speakers need to be placed for best higher-frequency sound and stereo imaging. You need separate subwoofers that can be located independently of the main stereo speakers. Then it's semantics as to whether the subwoofers and their amplification are parts of the main speakers or not, just because they happen to be in usefully separate cabinets.

The more practical metric of the bass extension of mains speakers is: How well do they integrate to the subwoofers? Can they match in desired playback volume? Play well enough to an octave below the crossover frequency to the subwoofers? Do phases/group delays match up?
 
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fill35u said:
At least six factors that need to be considered when evaluating claims of frequency range:

1. Volume level: Almost any speaker will play 20Hz, just not very loudly. Pad down the rest of the range to match, and voilá! How loud do you need that 20Hz? Look at the equal-loudness curves, that 20Hz needs a pretty high volume to be noticed as a *tone*. And that volume will probably be limited either by power handling or excursion.

2. Duration: related to the power handling mentioned above, and to power *compression*. It might take minutes (or even seconds), but the heating of the voice coil will drastically increase its resistance, and thus the output of the woofer.

3. Cutoff slope: 20Hz at -3dB? -6dB? -10dB? Not everybody specifies the same way, if at all. And is it booming above cutoff? How far down is it at 30Hz? 25Hz? 15Hz? See the equal-loudness contours again...

4. Distortion: When the driver approaches the magnetic or mechanical limits of excursion, distortion shoots way up. That distortion manifests as extra frequencies not in the original source. Once again, equal-loudness means the distortion will be much more audible than the fundamental note! The one bright spot is that our brains can extrapolate a low bass note from higher harmonics, even if we can't directly hear it.

5. Directivity: Not so important for low bass in small rooms, but certainly outdoors. And important for the tactile aspect. For the upper limit, extremely important. After all, how useful is "flat to 30kHz" if everything above 5kHz is delivered on a pencil-width beam?

6. Distance: Easy for any speaker to play even difficult low notes, if your ear is right against it. And also very important for bass tactile sensations.


Even if you had stereo speakers "flat" down to 20Hz, they would make no sense. Whatever is reproducing low bass (below, say, 80Hz) needs to be optimally located to provide the flattest room response. Having two such speakers, you can do that much more easily. However, where those speakers will need to be located for best bass response, will probably be nowhere near where speakers need to be placed for best higher-frequency sound and stereo imaging. You need separate subwoofers that can be located independently of the main stereo speakers. Then it's semantics as to whether the subwoofers and their amplification are parts of the main speakers or not, just because they happen to be in usefully separate cabinets.

The more practical metric of the bass extension of mains speakers is: How well do they integrate to the subwoofers? Can they match in desired playback volume? Play well enough to an octave below the crossover frequency to the subwoofers? Do phases/group delays match up?
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I have heard speakers that would do down to "around" 22 Hz or so in a few rooms.

The issue though, is WITH room gain (of a TYPICAL American living room) added to that, the speakers came out sounding way too heavy, ponderous and just hard to listen to with most music.


Those same speakers in a much larger space (About 25X32 foot) sounded FAR more listenable and the bass did not overwhelm and have that Heavy pumping sound on some deep notes.

Deep bass is great, but in MANY normal rooms, it overwhelms the small space and takes away from the sound.

I have a sub that starts rolling off around 30hz, and it even mildly overwhelms at times.
 
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Not many that can do , this is one of them it's the IRS beta 15hz-45khz servo controlled low end is far superior to what I have heard any other speaker/sub do.
 
AudioGMan said:
Are there any true full range floorstanding speakers? I don’t mean ones with a built in powered subwoofer. I mean all passive that will do 20Hz-20kHz +/- 3dB. I’ve owned Pioneer HPM-100, Cerwin Vega VS-120, Realistic Mach One, Realistic Mach Two, and Optimus Mach Three. None of those come close to getting down to 20Hz. I would assume it would have to be a large sealed enclosure. I’ve never heard any of the big vintage JBL with 15” woofers but every JBL I’ve seen is ported. I’ve heard Klipsch Heritage and KLF. The big CV with 15” woofers too. Am I gonna have to build huge sealed cabinets with dual 15” woofers in each and a horn D’apolito style to satisfy my wants?
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My original Carver amazing loudspeakers were flat down to 16 Hertz.
 
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