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True “full range” floorstanding speakers

z-adamson said:
First - A stereo amplifier alone that is capable of powering a pair of good passive subwoofers with adequate headroom would cost as much as all but the nicest powered subs. Once you buy the amplifier you need an active crossover. Then the subwoofer drivers themselves. Then enclosures. Going by the most commonly used of DIY subs for home use (Dayton Ultimax 18) by the way. Takes 1000 to 2000 watts to drive them properly. The most economical of amps to do this (QSC RMX5050) would run you about $1800. Then another couple hundred or more for a crossover. Another few hundred for enclosures. Another $600 or so for drivers. Going passive adds up fast. This is just one example using some of the most commonly used amps and subs for an example. Costs more, but you get more in the way of performance and reliability. I would love to see speaker manufacturers tool up to manufacture their own commercial grade or even home audiophile grade amplifiers and do it at a price point that is lower than QSC. Buuuuut, aint gunna happen. These speaker manufacturers that use plate amps are probably getting them from the lowest "bidder" rather than manufacturing their own which leads to an inferior product with reliability issues.

Second and Third - Of course it is easier for speaker manufacturers to fine tune the product since they have control over the amp and processing that is used. That and find ways for novice users to easily integrate the sub into their pre-existing system. For ease of use, the pre-fab powered sub w/plate amp wins every time and thats the appeal. Thats why they are aimed at casual users w/ a lower price point for the most part. It's an all in one package that is pre-engineered and all thought out so that the user has to do little to no thinking or tinkering of their own. It's a great convenience. But there is a trade-off here. The all in one package comes with performance limitations and reliability concerns.

My observation...
Click to expand...
That QSC is certainly not "the most economical" of amps to run an Ultimax 18". Plenty of people do it with something like a Crown XLS2002 bridged to 2100 watts @ 4 ohms. It's even got an active digital 24dB per octave crossover. It costs $550. Nowhere near the $1800 of the QSC. You can get the Dayton Ultimax 18" sub, and a flat pack sealed cabinet, for $473 off PartsExpress. Add in some binding posts and wire, and you're looking at a little over $1,000 for probably one of the best DIY subs around. One can pontificate about how wonderful the quality of the QSC is compared to the Crown, but there are plenty of happy people out there using the XLS amps in this exact configuration.
 
Laws of physics ...

Maybe with a 32 foot horn built into it's own building ..
Basically for boxes that would fit into a house, 20hz was unreachable until very long throw woofers were developed for subwoofers .. M & K was among the first .. CV.. Janus
 
My B&W 801s3 w/ the alignment filter (which I have) are rated -3dB at 19Hz.

(I also have Polk SDA 3.1TLs - per the above brochure - go down to 15Hz but the -3dB point is 32Hz.)

My old McIntosh ML-2C w/ MQ-102 which shook my windows below what I could actually hear - can't find an official freq response rating online though so not sure.

All are reasonably priced "normal" speaker systems that hadn't been mentioned before and maybe fit the bill for the OP.
 
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I’ve never understood the 20hz or lower home system goal, as there are really no recordings available with useful & accurate information that low, let alone below. Yes, there have been a few silly demo discs made that go down to 16hz and such, but only on analog, and no stylists would follow that groove! Digital could, but it wasn’t part of the plan, so no.
Yes, in person a pipe organ can produce such frequency, but who really cares? No actual music lover is getting anything from that but a sick stomach, you certainly aren’t hearing it!
 
frommerstop said:
I’ve never understood the 20hz or lower home system goal, as there are really no recordings available with useful & accurate information that low, let alone below. Yes, there have been a few silly demo discs made that go down to 16hz and such, but only on analog, and no stylists would follow that groove! Digital could, but it wasn’t part of the plan, so no.
Yes, in person a pipe organ can produce such frequency, but who really cares? No actual music lover is getting anything from that but a sick stomach, you certainly aren’t hearing it!
Click to expand...
Non-redbook audio can go lower than 20hz.
 
redbook audio can also go lower, if the master didn't firewall it at 20.

Case in point.
Napalm for Breakfast. Don't bother with the youtube, it's firewalled. the cd isn't, and has audio down to ~15 hz. Most systems won't reproduce it, but if yours does, then 2:36 on is a revelation.
 
frommerstop said:
I’ve never understood the 20hz or lower home system goal, as there are really no recordings available with useful & accurate information that low, let alone below. Yes, there have been a few silly demo discs made that go down to 16hz and such, but only on analog, and no stylists would follow that groove! Digital could, but it wasn’t part of the plan, so no.
Yes, in person a pipe organ can produce such frequency, but who really cares? No actual music lover is getting anything from that but a sick stomach, you certainly aren’t hearing it!
Click to expand...

Yeah, then there is the problem of the room doing a good job with the 50+ feet long waves....Good luck with that.
 
Nixxuz said:
That QSC is certainly not "the most economical" of amps to run an Ultimax 18". Plenty of people do it with something like a Crown XLS2002 bridged to 2100 watts @ 4 ohms. It's even got an active digital 24dB per octave crossover. It costs $550. Nowhere near the $1800 of the QSC. You can get the Dayton Ultimax 18" sub, and a flat pack sealed cabinet, for $473 off PartsExpress. Add in some binding posts and wire, and you're looking at a little over $1,000 for probably one of the best DIY subs around. One can pontificate about how wonderful the quality of the QSC is compared to the Crown, but there are plenty of happy people out there using the XLS amps in this exact configuration.
Click to expand...
I said stereo amplifier. If you know of a cheaper amp that does 1000wpc at 8ohms, I would love to know about it.
 
z-adamson said:
I said stereo amplifier. If you know of a cheaper amp that does 1000wpc at 8ohms, I would love to know about it.
Click to expand...
What possible reason would it need to do 1kwpc at 8 ohms, when the Ultimax can't even be wired for 8 ohms? The vast majority of long throw subs are wired 2 ohms to a voice coil. There's literally no reason to look for that wattage at 8 ohms.
But if you really need it, this does 1600wpc advertised, (1200 dyno tested.), into 8 ohms for less than $500;
https://www.behringer.com/Categorie...iers/Portable/NX6000/p/P0CHT#googtrans(en|en)

(It's almost the exact same internals between the Inuke and the NX series of amps btw.)

Also, 2 of the XLS2002, bridged, with 1300wpc @ 8 ohms, are still cheaper than the single QSC.
 
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jazzmans said:
redbook audio can also go lower, if the master didn't firewall it at 20.

Case in point.
Napalm for Breakfast. Don't bother with the youtube, it's firewalled. the cd isn't, and has audio down to ~15 hz. Most systems won't reproduce it, but if yours does, then 2:36 on is a revelation.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I also forgot about Lorde's "White Teeth Teens". It goes lower the 20hz as well, as I found out experimenting with coupled bass shakers.
 
frommerstop said:
I’ve never understood the 20hz or lower home system goal, as there are really no recordings available with useful & accurate information that low, let alone below. Yes, there have been a few silly demo discs made that go down to 16hz and such, but only on analog, and no stylists would follow that groove! Digital could, but it wasn’t part of the plan, so no.
Yes, in person a pipe organ can produce such frequency, but who really cares? No actual music lover is getting anything from that but a sick stomach, you certainly aren’t hearing it!
Click to expand...

I always have to shake my head, whenever the old-wives-tale of "there's no recordings with information below 20Hz" comes up.

I can pull several LP RECORDS off my shelf- not to mention CDs- that have plenty of information going below 20Hz.

The first one I usually play for people, is the Poulenc Organ Concerto in G Minor, recorded in the Cathedral of St. Philip here in Atlanta. The 16 Hz pipe organ is an ESSENTIAL part of the piece. It is TRIVIALLY SIMPLE to hear the 16 Hz pedal tone (C0) as a DISTINCT MUSICAL PITCH, when it's present.

If anyone has bothered to listen to any modern EDM music (including chillstep and downtempo varieties), you will find plenty of info down there. And it's pretty essential, for getting the whole gestalt of the musical pieces too, in many cases...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
My ADS L1530's still do pretty meaningful bass between 20 and 30 Hz. For most music I listen to, that's all I'd ever need. Some rap and hip hop I listen to goes where only my sub can go, but I don't notice for the vast majority of music.
 
GordonW said:
I always have to shake my head, whenever the old-wives-tale of "there's no recordings with information below 20Hz" comes up.

I can pull several LP RECORDS off my shelf- not to mention CDs- that have plenty of information going below 20Hz.

The first one I usually play for people, is the Poulenc Organ Concerto in G Minor, recorded in the Cathedral of St. Philip here in Atlanta. The 16 Hz pipe organ is an ESSENTIAL part of the piece. It is TRIVIALLY SIMPLE to hear the 16 Hz pedal tone (C0) as a DISTINCT MUSICAL PITCH, when it's present.

If anyone has bothered to listen to any modern EDM music (including chillstep and downtempo varieties), you will find plenty of info down there. And it's pretty essential, for getting the whole gestalt of the musical pieces too, in many cases...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...
Learned this fact at my neighbors house with a bunch of Telarc LP’s, a Shure V-15 type V/MR on a fine DD Sony table and some larger ADS in the early-mid 80’s. He had a lot of 16-32hz material as he was an organ buff.
 
z-adamson said:
Yeah, then there is the problem of the room doing a good job with the 50+ feet long waves....Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

You don't need room size commensurate to wavelength to get low bass.

OTOH, a generic qualification such as "...doing a good job with..." can mean almost anything.
 
GordonW said:
I always have to shake my head, whenever the old-wives-tale of "there's no recordings with information below 20Hz" comes up.

I can pull several LP RECORDS off my shelf- not to mention CDs- that have plenty of information going below 20Hz.
Click to expand...

Often this "information" is to the detriment of the overall sound, such as stage vibrations that are picked up by the microphones. This is quite common with live recordings.
 
whoaru99 said:
You don't need room size commensurate to wavelength to get low bass.

OTOH, a generic qualification such as "...doing a good job with..." can mean almost anything.
Click to expand...
"low bass" can mean many things as well...

My observation has been that with subwoofers that play flat into the 20hz range, once you reach a certain SPL you get all kinds of room interaction. The smaller the room the worse it gets, all else equal. The more SPL, the worse it gets.
 
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