True “full range” floorstanding speakers

[Audiofreak71]

My Vandersteen 3a Signatures get close and I’m sure in room response gets down to 20hz theyre 26hz-30khz +/- 3db , but even if they were flat at 20hz-20khz I would still use a subwoofer/s with them. When dialed in properly there’s nothing like having subs with full range speakers imo of course.

Audiofreak71

 

[AudioGMan]

As I suggested earlier, KEF R107s will do exactly what you’re asking for. They reproduce, in a normal room, 20hz-20khz +/-2db and require only a good single amplifier of 100+wpc into 4ohms. They are not particularly expensive on the used market, and Aren’t particularly critical of placement.
It’s hard to imagine a better suggestion than that.

Those are pretty impressive specs. +/-2dB. I’ve never seen/heard a pair. Thanks for the suggestion.

It's not impossible but it would be a lot more difficult than to build two cabinets per channel, because you're going to need two subenclosures (one for the subwoofer, one for the woofer, the former of which will probably be significantly larger than the latter), both tuned to that specific driver. It's also going to make them very heavy. It's been done - take a look at the Infinity Kappa 8 and 9 as two commercially-made examples (the midbass driver is an unusual dome rather than a cone, but it still uses a low-pass crossover frequency of 90hz, not bad for a subwoofer's high-pass cutoff point), but neither of those models go as low as you're looking to go, and they're already quite heavy.

I think you misunderstood. Two 12” drivers(per cabinet) would share the same internal volume and be wired in series to create an 8 ohm load. Both 12” would be playing the same bass frequencies. And then each cabinet would also have a single fullrange driver. Yeah they would be quite heavy but that’s not a problem. I would guess maybe 100 pounds each.

 

[AudioGMan]

My Vandersteen 3a Signatures get close and I’m sure in room response gets down to 20hz theyre 26hz-30khz +/- 3db , but even if they were flat at 20hz-20khz I would still use a subwoofer/s with them. When dialed in properly there’s nothing like having subs with full range speakers imo of course.

Audiofreak71

Well that’s basically what I plan on building. A pair of subwoofers teamed up with a pair of full range drivers. Except it will be all passive. Not much different than a sub/satellite system.

 

[Audiofreak71]

Well that’s basically what I plan on building. A pair of subwoofers teamed up with a pair of full range drivers. Except it will be all passive. Not much different than a sub/satellite system.

It works very good , the key is to get the subs dialed in properly with the speakers . It took some work but I got my 18in sub dialed in perfect (for me) With my 3a Sigs .

Audiofreak71

 

[Poultrygeist]

Yes I understand. Had I meant that I would have titled the OP True “full range driver” floorstanding speakers. I never refer to a single driver as a speaker. To me a speaker is a complete system. So in other words a speaker can be one that consists of a single driver but I never refer to a raw driver as a speaker. I’m curious, has anyone built a single driver speaker that is truly full range?

Lowther claims 30hz to 20khz.

I just completed these monster MLTL's and they've renewed my faith in monkey coffins.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Like this...

View attachment 1819209

nice!

 

[opnly bafld]

I have four brand new still in the box 12” Blaupunkt GBW120 subwoofers that I bought months ago. They are single voice coil 4 ohm drivers intended for car audio use. My intentions are to build two separate sealed cabinets about 8 cubic feet each with a pair of the drivers wired in series in each cabinet. The drivers will probably be oriented side by side so the speaker cabinets will be roughly 3 feet wide each. The front baffle would extend above the drivers and become an open baffle for either a 6-1/2” or 8” fullrange driver. The center of the fullrange drivers will be 34” from the floor putting them at seated ear level. Then I will build a two way 200Hz 12dB/octave passive crossover for each. So basically it would be a two way speaker each consisting of two 12” subwoofers and a single fullrange driver. Does anyone see any problems I might run in to with this idea? Any input is welcomed.

My quick and dirty calculation showed 2 cubic ft per driver is plenty and a -6dB @ low 30s.

 

[AudioGMan]

My quick and dirty calculation showed 2 cubic ft per driver is plenty and a -6dB @ low 30s.

I think you’re right. I used an online calculator and the results were 1.39 cubic feet per driver with an F3 of 45Hz and a Qts of 0.707. I’m going to have to reconsider my driver selection if I want to achieve flat response to 20Hz as these drivers have an Fs of 32Hz.

 

[E-Stat]

Lowther claims 30hz to 20khz.

But after lots of "perspiration", Nelson Pass determined you really need some Pipe-Os to get anything approaching linear results.

 

[HPMguy]

Physics is why you can't have small speakers with very extended bass response. Something that can drive well at 20Hz is going to be too big and heavy to work well at higher frequencies, especially as you have to more LOTS of air at low frequencies. Huge amounts, actually.

Compound that with the fact that low frequency sound waves are larger than most home listening areas gives you serious reflection and interference node problems too.

Use a sub, it's the easy way to get what you want. Only need one.

The alternative route, of course, is very large (and expensive) speakers, but that won't address the room sonics.

I find that everything except organ music is artificial in the first place in terms of very low bass, and personally have very little interest. I tend to wear 25 dB down earplugs in movie theaters, I want to keep my hearing.

Note that the low pipe organ pipes are HUGE -- as in you can stand inside them huge. And a good deal of the low frequency effect of pipe organs is interference tuning, they are deliberately tuned off perfect pitch to produce low frequency harmonics. And they are usually in very, very large spaces to boot. Can't get the effect in anything smaller than a cathedral.

 

[swechsler]

I think you misunderstood. Two 12” drivers(per cabinet) would share the same internal volume and be wired in series to create an 8 ohm load. Both 12” would be playing the same bass frequencies. And then each cabinet would also have a single fullrange driver. Yeah they would be quite heavy but that’s not a problem. I would guess maybe 100 pounds each.

No, I didn't misunderstand. Whether you use a full range driver (and I have my doubts that any full range driver is truly flat to 20khz, but that's beside the point) or a separate mid-woofer and tweeter, it will still need its own subenclosure, separate from that of the subwoofer(s).

 

[opnly bafld]

Compound that with the fact that low frequency sound waves are larger than most home listening areas gives you serious reflection and interference node problems too.

Use a sub, it's the easy way to get what you want. Only need one.

The alternative route, of course, is very large (and expensive) speakers, but that won't address the room sonics.

Note that the low pipe organ pipes are HUGE -- as in you can stand inside them huge. And a good deal of the low frequency effect of pipe organs is interference tuning, they are deliberately tuned off perfect pitch to produce low frequency harmonics. And they are usually in very, very large spaces to boot. Can't get the effect in anything smaller than a cathedral.

More subwoofers = better
Good low bass can add to the spacious sound in a room no matter the size.

 

[AudioGMan]

No, I didn't misunderstand. Whether you use a full range driver (and I have my doubts that any full range driver is truly flat to 20khz, but that's beside the point) or a separate mid-woofer and tweeter, it will still need its own subenclosure, separate from that of the subwoofer(s).

As stated in a previous post, the front baffle of the subwoofer enclosure would extend above the 12” drivers and that would be the open baffle portion. So it’s basically a box that has the front baffle taller than the rest of the box panels. There is no separate subenclosure for the fullrange driver. It would be on an open baffle.

 

[c_dk]

We had a similar discussion going on in the Mac forum last week. I knew I had this scan in one of my laptops. This was done with a McIntosh AA2 analyzer in a clients living room a number of years ago, so no pictures of the McIntosh XR6 speakers, a 40" or so tall 4 way with a 12,8 cones and 1.5 and 1" domes.

Graph shows speakers with and without Mq104 parametric Eq engaged and before some basic discussions with the clients interior decorator about moving the LH speaker further from the LH wall and corner.

Roger Russell, McIntosh's director of acoustic research back in the day maintains a website were he details his exploration in speaker design, including low frequency room effects and column speaker design, both of which he received patent on.

 

[Pyrrho]

As I suggested earlier, KEF R107s will do exactly what you’re asking for. They reproduce, in a normal room, 20hz-20khz +/-2db and require only a good single amplifier of 100+wpc into 4ohms. They are not particularly expensive on the used market, and Aren’t particularly critical of placement.
It’s hard to imagine a better suggestion than that.

He might not like the fact that one must use equalization to get that; the KEF Reference 107 uses their "KUBE" equalizer that one hooks up to one's tape monitor (or inserts between one's preamp and power amp). Without the KUBE, one does not get that flat frequency response with that speaker. For those interested in the details:

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/550/index.html

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/kef/model-107.shtml

 

[donprice]

There’s speakers that have two woofers side by side playing the same frequencies that are crossed over higher than 200Hz. I know there’s a JBL model like that.

The JBLs probably are a 2.5-way design where one woofer is rolled off rather low to avoid lobing or comb filtering. Two very different examples below...

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret Series/4612B.pdf
https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/type/floorstanding-loudspeakers/DD67000RW.html

JBL built so many systems that there probably is one with dual 12s running into the mid-range....but I can't think of one (and I'm not the resident JBL expert).

 

[Pyrrho]

Infinity QLS-1 and IRS Gamma.

Recently, one could have purchased a pair of Infinity QLS-1 speakers for $1350 that were supposedly fully functional:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Infinity-Q...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

If I lived closer and if I disliked using separate subwoofers like AudioGMan, then I would have purchased them (because I like having very deep bass). As it is, I am happy to use subwoofers, which makes it easy to get deep bass with whatever main speakers one likes. There are more options when one is willing to use a subwoofer or subwoofers. I use an SVS subwoofer with my Apogee Stage speakers, and am very happy with the results. It took a bit of time, playing with a test disc and SPL meter, to adjust things to my liking, but that is not something one needs to do very often. Also, filtering the deep bass from one's main speakers enables them to better deal with the upper bass. My Apogee Stage speakers are two-way, so I effectively have a three way system (due to adding a subwoofer).

 

[c_dk]

In Russell's discription at his website he does highlight some other speaker manufacturers who stepped into Mac's patent and their decision to not press like they did with Apple over the naming rights......

I believe B&W, KEF and Thiel all stepped into Mac's patent.....

The most important part of the program though was equipping dealers with the measuring equipment and the parametric EQs to not only boost but also cut the room caused modes and frequency aberrations........in 1977.

With all the others mentioned you just made a wild ass guess.

 

[Lux Man]

Why not build the jbl4435? They seem to go that low if a ported design is ok with you. The crossovers will be tough to find so just use an active crossover.

 

[frommerstop]

He might not like the fact that one must use equalization to get that; the KEF Reference 107 uses their "KUBE" equalizer that one hooks up to one's tape monitor (or inserts between one's preamp and power amp). Without the KUBE, one does not get that flat frequency response with that speaker. For those interested in the details:

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/550/index.html

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/kef/model-107.shtml

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/550/index.html[/URL]

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/kef/model-107.shtml

While it is true, a KUBE is necessary to get 20hz (-2db), it isn’t needed to keep the speakers flat to their natural roll off. I’m not sure what the rating on them is without theKUBE, but I believe it’s in the low 30s. Regardless, they do what the OP asked for with their standard equipment... all R107s, series 1, or 2, were equipped with that EQ and specially modified woofers to run down to 20hz.
I see no reason, nor suggestion by the OP that would preclude the use of such a feature.