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Tube amps vs solid state

If you believe that for one instant ...........wow :worried: ........I'm speechless :headscrat

I don't know how to respond to a statement like that :dunno:

Like the kids say; whatever :saywhat:

I'm out of here with this one, wasted too much time already

Carry on :wave:

Thomas

If you don't know how to respond then perhaps you don't have a case for it?

So, rather than take your marbles and go home, educate me.

Without regard for failure of other components, bad designs, etc., tubes wear out through normal use. What is the technical mechanism by which transistors wear out from normal use assuming the same as previously mentioned for tubes?
 
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Ease of service/maintainability and reliability aren't the same thing.

I'd certainly agree that plugging in a new set of tubes is easier than soldering in a new set of transistors, but that doesn't necessarily make tubes more reliable than transistors.

We can all cherry pick examples to support our respective points but, in general, I'd still have to say SS is more reliable than tube. Resistors and capacitors, well, wash them across the board. Tubes wear out and can fail due to other component issues or user issues. Transistors don't wear out, afaik, but can as well fail from other component issues or user issues.

More than a few posts about the reliability of SS vs. tubes, but I don't really see any posts regarding coolness factor.
Tubes are so much cooler and more interesting, more fun than SS. I was browsing the listings for tube amps because I'm thinking I might buy a new amp. Lots of nice amps for sale, I'm just not ready to buy anything. So I take a look at SS amps...BOOOR-ING. Boxes with a switch. You don't see the tubes, can't assess the quality and size of the OPTs, can't think about what tubes you'd like to roll into them. Nothing. Buy it, put it in the rack and take a nap. Where's the fun in that?
For many, this hobby is much more than listening to music. Tubes add so much to the hobby for me. If "no muss no fuss" is how you roll then have at it with your SS amps. For me, I'll be soaking in the warm glow of my tubes along with sweet music. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too!
 
^^^
You must have missed the part where I said I have tubes as well.

Doesn't get much cooler than top plate connections. ;)

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^^^
You must have missed the part where I said I have tubes as well.

Doesn't get much cooler than top plate connections. ;)
I just quoted your post because it was the last that addressed reliability.

What tubes are the ones with the top caps? I have an amp that runs 807s. The top caps on those suckers carries 400+ VDC, talk about dangerous.
The top caps in the pic are 6C6s, the top caps carry just the audio signal.

So you agree then - Tubes are way better than SS in every way :D
 

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The amp itself was remade for 6L6GC (originally 6V6, afaik) but what you see is conversion to 6BG6GA. Plate voltage is ~400V as well.

My point in this thread has not been which is better only about my thoughts on the reliability aspect. I don't buy my gear necessarily based on that criteria unless rumor or evidence has it something is a real stinker.
 
More than a few posts about the reliability of SS vs. tubes, but I don't really see any posts regarding coolness factor.
Tubes are so much cooler and more interesting, more fun than SS. I was browsing the listings for tube amps because I'm thinking I might buy a new amp. Lots of nice amps for sale, I'm just not ready to buy anything. So I take a look at SS amps...BOOOR-ING. Boxes with a switch. You don't see the tubes, can't assess the quality and size of the OPTs, can't think about what tubes you'd like to roll into them. Nothing. Buy it, put it in the rack and take a nap. Where's the fun in that?
For many, this hobby is much more than listening to music. Tubes add so much to the hobby for me. If "no muss no fuss" is how you roll then have at it with your SS amps. For me, I'll be soaking in the warm glow of my tubes along with sweet music. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too!

+1 If you are into DIY, are a tinkerer and enjoy experimentation, discovery and hands-on type stuff, then tubes r 4 u! If you don't like the hassle, then go solid state. Of course looks play a big part too. Either way, great sounds available either way. In the grand scope of things, they don't sound THAT much different to get preachy about.
 
I have personally experienced an epiphany of sorts, while working closely with several different tube and transistor-based preamps and amps. Aside from the typical descriptions, it seems that there is a resolution characteristic that is particular to the better tube preamps and amps. This phenomenon pinpoints certain subtleties in music that tend to get masked, even with the finer SS equipment. In other words, my epiphany was that I could easily detect what were otherwise masked subtleties in musical details that revealed a given recording as obviously "excellent", "good", or "bad" in a way that I hadn't previously observed.

"Flat" is a term that is commonly used to describe SS, although I'm not convinced that it is entirely desirable. Those who mentioned objectionable noise and/or distortion with tube equipment must not realize how that is not typical at all of the better designs. The noise aspect especially should not be tolerated, as it isn't audibly detectable in the competent designs.

Distilling a few thoughts from a fairly general sweep through the posts here incluing a few added concepts:

The better tube audio equipment tends to present a dimension, depth and "air" to music much more so than that compared with the generally flat, or "two-dimensional presentation" that is a classic characteristic or a potential 'complaint' of most SS designs. Exceptions and overlaps of characteristics abound as noted elsewhere, so this is more a matter in the sense of a bottom-line average description. If someone hasn't tried both in a close comparison, they might be unlikely to realize the difference that in fact exists, once a certain quality level is attained for either SS or tube.

Arguments started back and forth about wear failures, yet well-used, 60 plus years old tubes are in operation to this day. Qs ("Q" is a term for a transistor) tend to fail catastrophically rather than "wearing down", or getting weaker, as that is a tube tendency, although Qs suffer from other SS specific types of failures. Q's internal failures tend to be due to microscopic-level breakdowns of the sandwiched crystal material layers, along with some other potential, internal factors. The dreaded "Black leg disease" comes to mind, a type of reactive oxidation or corrosion characteristic that starts on the outside of a Q's lead wires and creeps inside to wreak internal havoc.

Another form of failure could be due to thermal runaway. Most typical Qs are known as Bipolar Junction Transistors or BJTs and these may/will suffer in various degrees from thermal runaway effects. The BJTs' actual thermal failures are generally due to other, external circuitry components' issues as the root cause that setup the Q for failure.

Another Q known as a Mosfet has an edge, as they thermally react in the opposite way from BJTs, so they are 'self-regulating' to a degree. The definition of "wear" comes into play here, as Qs tend to function in their normal capacity parameters for a lifetime, provided all internal and external conditions are favorable, yet failures abound, as noted.

Fact: Both tubes and transistor that run at the extremes of their designated parameters will tend to fail well before those that simply 'idle' at much cooler temps. The same is true for electrolytic capacitors that are located near high heat areas. Tube rectifiers and the heavy-current swinging output tubes run hotter than most all others, so they tend to wear out long before all other tubes.

Fact: Tubes definitely, progressively wear down as their emission levels will become weaker during the amount of use. Some form of minor to major deterioration will be evident over both the operation time and the circuit/app specific degree of 'work' they perform. The wear can be anything from severe in a short period of time, to virtually undetectable after several years or potentially decades of operation.

Fact: Tubes will be hot to varying 'degrees' during operation and generally tend to run hotter than transistors, although plenty of other factors also determine lifespan and wear factors.

Next in line, down from tubes/transistors failures, electrolytic capacitors tend to fail more often than most any other component over years/decades of use.
 
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For my two channel listening, I prefer tubes.
Why?
1. Full three-dimensional sonic imaging.
2. Lack of listener fatigue over hours of listening. I work at home a lot and will have a system running at my desk in a close-monitoring situation for upward of 10 hours a day. When finished, I'm not exhausted and don't yell at the kids - well, maybe the work has exhausted me, but my ear fatigue hasn't.
 
I just pulled out the tube system and put in the high power solid state rig. Man, why would anybody force themselves to choose? There is so much that this system does that the tubes don't, and so much that the tubes do that this doesn't. 400wpc has a way of opening up the bottom end of 87db/watt speakers that my 35wpc tubes can't handle. Now...if I had the Atma-sphere OTL amps I've been contemplating....
 
Man, why would anybody force themselves to choose? There is so much that this system does that the tubes don't, and so much that the tubes do that this doesn't.

That's the way I look at these questions, just like the vinyl vs. CD debate: Why would you only choose one, unless you genuinely dislike tube or ss components?
 
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John:
...Man, why would anybody force themselves to choose? There is so much that this system does that the tubes don't, and so much that the tubes do that this doesn't. 400wpc has a way of opening up the bottom end of 87db/watt speakers that my 35wpc tubes can't handle...

Good points, most of which I personally agree with; however, my preference is for a high-end tube preamp since it is the most critical keystone element; get the best you can possibly manage and you should never find yourself looking elsewhere, ever. "Keystone element" refers to the critical changes that a preamp makes for virtually all finer/finest systems.

Nothing 'wrong' with a high quality SS power amp for most any system; I happen to use one myself for the same reasons-inefficient spkrs; in my case, they take the form of electrostatics that lay all but the most powerful tube amps to complete shame. OTOH, I've heard plenty of tube amp-based systems that shine incredibly with efficient spkrs, which really 'bring out the best' in most any competent tube amp.
 
If you don't know how to respond then perhaps you don't have a case for it?

So, rather than take your marbles and go home, educate me.

Without regard for failure of other components, bad designs, etc., tubes wear out through normal use. What is the technical mechanism by which transistors wear out from normal use assuming the same as previously mentioned for tubes?

Well, I have a Threshold 400A, and a few of the output transisitors started to get noisy. The bias transistors also started to fail, or "wear out", as it were. No doubt it was to long term usage and generated heat over the years.

Wound up doing a complete restoration on the unt, changing out all the parts on the driver boards, non-inductive resistors, caps, output transistors, non inductive emmiter resistors, etc. The amp now sounds incredible, better than new, as parts quality has improved from the 70's.
 
Someone throw me a bone and suggest a stereo tube amp for $500-$1000 that sounds killer and will be we representative of its breed
depends on the speakers u are using or plan to use, plus always remember it is the system as a whole - one piece does not a system make :D
Personally, and is just me, I happen to lean towards very inefficient speakers, so for my use I like solid state amps with a tube preamp ( as stated before, I am sure there are ss pre's that can easily better what I am using).
Good thing also about just a tube pre is tubes will last a really long time.

I tried a 75 wpc tube amp on just the panels of my SL3 and while I paid a bunch of money for it and wanted to love it, in this instance sheer power (Spec 2) ended up sounding MUCH better.

Is just really expensive to get a tube amp with the power I need/want.
 
One thing you can count on is that acquiring that tube gear will clean out your wallet much quicker than comparable ss gear.:yes:

As far as maintenance goes all that vintage gear will need work at some point in time. I use my tube gear to keep my upstairs warm during the winter months and the ss gear the rest of the year. Each one has their own merits so that's why I also keep some from each camp.
 
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As far as maintenance goes all that vintage gear will need work at some point in time.

Maintenance is an ongoing process, such as changing the oil in your car or the tubes in your tube gear.

Reconditioning is rebuilding the engine or replacing the capacitors, for example.
 
Well, I have a Threshold 400A, and a few of the output transisitors started to get noisy. The bias transistors also started to fail, or "wear out", as it were. No doubt it was to long term usage and generated heat over the years.

Wound up doing a complete restoration on the unt, changing out all the parts on the driver boards, non-inductive resistors, caps, output transistors, non inductive emmiter resistors, etc. The amp now sounds incredible, better than new, as parts quality has improved from the 70's.



As I mentioned earlier in the thread, no doubt there are some examples to support either position. However, it's not typical to replace the semiconductor devices even when reconditioning a SS amp, yet replacing tubes is a fairly routine process in the life of a tube piece.
 
Maintenance is an ongoing process, such as changing the oil in your car or the tubes in your tube gear.

Reconditioning is rebuilding the engine or replacing the capacitors, for example.

Good analogy:thmbsp:. In my case I've found that my tube gear does require more maintenance and more extensive reconditoning as well. I'm sure some of it has to do with the tube gear running much higher voltages.

I'd certainly rather pony up for a simple transistor, conductor or cap that rarely goes bad rather than a nos kt88 which does have a limited lifespan. It's just one of the caveats of owning tube gear and you come to expect it.
 
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, no doubt there are some examples to support either position. However, it's not typical to replace the semiconductor devices even when reconditioning a SS amp, yet replacing tubes is a fairly routine process in the life of a tube piece.

And for the last time, what does that have to do with reliability, even though it is not true?

Another ignorant generalization. It's just not true when you insist on the term "semiconductor devices". Which ones? What are you talking about? Be more specific.

You know, there's plenty of "semiconductor devices" in tube gear, starting in the early '60s. Think Fishers for one. And it's very common for those "semiconductor devices" to be the cause of the worse type of failures these tube amplifiers and receivers ever experience.

How many pieces of either type of equipment have YOU personally "reconditioned"?

Just because you own a tube amp doesn't mean anything; you obviously don't know what you are talking about first hand, and are just parroting popular misconceptions and the flawed definition of what the term "reliability" means.

Tube equipment will outlast Solid State stuff by decades. To me that spells reliable.

Just because your tech is a hack and leaves in worn out TO-3s just because they "still work OK" doesn't make your ridiculous comments so. There's plenty of worn out tubes still doing duty just as well; poorly.

I swore I'd stay out of this ridiculous thread, but I just couldn't take your continued insistence to spread bad, borderline false, misinformation.

Thomas
 
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And for the last time, what does that have to do with reliability, even though it is not true?

Another ignorant generalization. It's just not true when you insist on the term "semiconductor devices". Which ones? What are you talking about? Be more specific.

You know, there's plenty of "semiconductor devices" in tube gear, starting in the early '60s. Think Fishers for one. And it's very common for those "semiconductor devices" to be the cause of the worse type of failures these tube amplifiers and receivers ever experience.

How many pieces of either type of equipment have YOU personally "reconditioned"?

Just because you own a tube amp doesn't mean anything; you obviously don't know what you are talking about first hand, and are just parroting popular misconceptions and the flawed definition of what the term "reliability" means.

Tube equipment will outlast Solid State stuff by decades. To me that spells reliable.

Just because your tech is a hack and leaves in worn out TO-3s just because they "still work OK" doesn't make your ridiculous comments so. There's plenty of worn out tubes still doing duty just as well; poorly.

I swore I'd stay out of this ridiculous thread, but I just couldn't take your continued insistence to spread bad, borderline false, misinformation.

Thomas

Ad hominem attacks do not strengthen your position.
 
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