Tubes and system synergy

[Poultrygeist]

A SET produces 2nd and even order harmonics while push pulls and solid state amps produce 3rd order and odd order harmonics. 2nd order harmonics are the same note one octave higher and are rich and complimentary sounding. Odd order harmonics are harsh and non-complimentary. Negative feedback is used to lower distortion in solid state amps while SET amps do not require negative feedback. It is said that the triode vacuum tube in and of itself is the most linear amplifying device yet devised.

Some advantages of full range single drivers.

Mid-range is king and this is where they shine.

Coherency especially in near field is almost perfect.

One channel of amplification per driver allows the amp to see the simplier load which results in increased depth and bass output.

Single drivers mean no crossovers. Crossovers are the most damaging to the mid-range and this is the area most sensitive to phase mix ups.

The imaging of a single point source is ideal.

 

[MWalt]

3.5W :yes:

IME, SE amps work best with single-driver speakers or those with a minimal crossover. My EVs, for example, have a single capacitor for the crossover. The trick is to find something efficient, with as flat an impedance as possible. Once you find a good combo thats to your liking, youll have a hard time going back. I used to be a 3 or 4 amps a year kinda guy until I started using SET...now my 6B4G amp has been my go-to amp for 3 years now .

Bob, that is one nice looking amp. Who makes that one?

As an inexpensive experiment, what would you think of this amp: Musical Paradise MP-301 MK3. Maybe later add some Zu or Tekton speakers. Give me some suggestions, if you will.

 

[Poultrygeist]

The Get Set Go 6B4G is a DIY PCB kit that is quite popular and is reported to have excellent sonics. Here's one paired with the full range single driver Frugal Horn Mk3.

http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4919&sid=f78b773c3a7bfe26898807d2a2aa5577

 

[Poultrygeist]

Here's a collection of turn tables and SETs driving FR OBs to drool over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r077mtt1S2c

 

[MWalt]

Nice video and that DIY amp is gorgeous. Unfortunately, I have neither the time, patience, or expertise for DIY. It has to come in a box ready to go! But, the good news is that I will pay for good gear. The Horn Shop has their horns done to order for around $800 or so. That is Tekton range as well. That little SET amp out of Canada gets nice reviews.

 

[slippers-on]

A SET produces 2nd and even order harmonics while push pulls and solid state amps produce 3rd order and odd order harmonics. 2nd order harmonics are the same note one octave higher and are rich and complimentary sounding. Odd order harmonics are harsh and non-complimentary. Negative feedback is used to lower distortion in solid state amps while SET amps do not require negative feedback. It is said that the triode vacuum tube in and of itself is the most linear amplifying device yet devised.

Some advantages of full range single drivers.

Mid-range is king and this is where they shine.

Coherency especially in near field is almost perfect.

One channel of amplification per driver allows the amp to see the simplier load which results in increased depth and bass output.

Single drivers mean no crossovers. Crossovers are the most damaging to the mid-range and this is the area most sensitive to phase mix ups.

The imaging of a single point source is ideal.

Poultry...im not even pretend im that technical when it comes to talking 2 and 3 order harmonics...its not in me man. I have heard some single drivers , that other stuff you're talking is greek to me and I dont have time to seek it out....got too much work going on over here for a while. But I can say that for me....my ears will tell me whats best when I have time to get a litte flea powered amp. Thats where the proof for me will be...I was hoping you or any body could talk in more laymans terms rather than technical.

 

[slippers-on]

Poultry...what you think about Florians SET amps? Personally I think its great but am puzzeled why you say it makes no sense?

 

[poppachubby]

Poultry, I have been thinking about a purchase tho...that same little integrated amp LeRoy has. http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=QIA6000II

I have a pair of Klipsch KM 4' towers in the closet...I think 94DB to pair with it. What do you think?

The KM4 would most likely be a nice match slips, but there's more to consider than the efficiency spec. Impedance matching will have a greater bearing on how it sounds. This is something that the SS crowd largely don't need to worry about, but its key with tube gear.

For example, I have a pair of Sound Dynamics 1200-SMT which consist of a 12" woofer, 12" passive rad and a metal dome tweeter. They are rated at 103db... crazy sensitive. However they sound absolutely awful with any tubes I have hooked up to them. The highs are just unlistenable, and the mids are like listening to a cat in heat - they are a poor match.

Most people like to use tubes ahead of SS, but I have been rockin an SS pre with my tube amp. My tube pre is dead quiet, but the SS has a really black and quiet background.

Slips I'm not sure if a SET system is what you would ultimately like. I know you are a man of fine musical taste, and appreciate great mids and such, but I think you would miss the dynamic bumrush of the SS in your system. Of course (as poultry will most likely chime in) you can set up a sub for that low end, and add a super tweeter for ultra high end. But just thinking about a SET amp with full rangers, not sure.

It's not like the SET can't do things well dynamically, but I have learned to live with a more natural mix of bass. The trade off of course is PERFECT midrange. I am talking about that rich and creamy tone which makes a voice or horn sound lifelike. Aside from this, in combination with my Frugal horns, the imaging and soundstage is as good as it gets. It's not quite as great, but inline with panel/stats to be sure. Completely 3D, depth, height, width... it adds a dimension of enjoyment to the listening that is absent for many.

As far as synergy is concerned, I think I made the greatest efforts when it came to low level detail. This is an area which evades many audiophiles' goals. I think alot of people are simpy willing to live with a "bit of hum" or non-optimum ability when it comes to the simple topic of silence. The quieter you get your system, the more low level detail can come through (without having to crank the gain).

This dynamic range, IMO, is at the very heart of music's emotional power. It's crazy to me that even the "live performance in my living room" crowd don't even espouse this concept all that much. With your systems range at an optimum level, the impact of the music can really come through. Quiet/loud has long been one of the main tools any musician will use in order to increase a songs emotional statement. Even raucous bands like Nirvana or Green Day know the value of scalin it back before you give it up.

In any case slips, don't limit yourself to Flea power SET. My amp has 40W/ch and can drive a nice range of speakers. I love my Frugals.. no let me say that again... I LOOOOOVE my Frugals - but I have had some great results with many other pairs. Believe it or not, my Mission 707's were probably one of the best matches I have heard yet. Hardly a perfect speaker, but it sounded perfect with my amp.

Peace out bitches!!

 

[poppachubby]

Synergy...

What drew me to this thread was the fact that I am currently renovating my mancave, and have been experimenting with some different system configurations. I have to admit, it's been fun - I haven't touched my system in well over a year.

Right now I have a corner of the room set up simply for utility, music while I work. This has been wildly enjoyable... and of course, synergistic. The Frugals respond really great on either side of the natural corner. It narrows the width of the soundstage, but increases the depth. The sound is audibly behind the speakers rather than next to, or in front.

Lately I have been considering all analog for my main system, with passive attenuation. This little digital set up has me thinking otherwise... so much fun. Of course the Squeezebox is just so much fun as compared to vinyl, and easy. I may try something like this for a while. The Touch is able to control the gain without any issues or need for added resistance.

Comments or thoughts are welcome here guys...

Golden Tube SE40
Valab 8xTDA1541 DAC (NOS)
Squeezebox Touch
Frugal Horns MKIII

PS Audio Power Cords
WBT 2016 w/ 0101
Transparent Musiclink 110ohm
Ultralink Challenger 2 - 12awg

 

[Poultrygeist]

Poultry...what you think about Florians SET amps? Personally I think its great but am puzzeled why you say it makes no

The advantage of a SET over other types comes from the fact that it uses the simplest circuit design there is with the fewest parts in the signal path. It's really nothing more than a driver stage hooked to a single ended output stage. It's minimalism and low output contribute to its sonic purity.

SET circuits date back to the 1920s and are the oldest of all audio circuits. Since their output is so limited they were always paired with highly efficient speakers. They were never designed to make high power for low efficiency speakers.

 

[slippers-on]

What drew me to this thread was the fact that I am currently renovating my mancave, and have been experimenting with some different system configurations. I have to admit, it's been fun - I haven't touched my system in well over a year.

Right now I have a corner of the room set up simply for utility, music while I work. This has been wildly enjoyable... and of course, synergistic. The Frugals respond really great on either side of the natural corner. It narrows the width of the soundstage, but increases the depth. The sound is audibly behind the speakers rather than next to, or in front.

Lately I have been considering all analog for my main system, with passive attenuation. This little digital set up has me thinking otherwise... so much fun. Of course the Squeezebox is just so much fun as compared to vinyl, and easy. I may try something like this for a while. The Touch is able to control the gain without any issues or need for added resistance.

Comments or thoughts are welcome here guys...

Golden Tube SE40
Valab 8xTDA1541 DAC (NOS)
Squeezebox Touch
Frugal Horns MKIII

PS Audio Power Cords
WBT 2016 w/ 0101
Transparent Musiclink 110ohm
Ultralink Challenger 2 - 12awg

Very good information there Pops...I am not sure a set is good for me either, but I do want to listen to one. I know i love what my Cantons do...and they like power. I love these speakers. Your system looks good by the way Pops... and I have not forgot about ya....I should have that information for you this week.

 

[slippers-on]

Pops...how's that DAC? I think the name is new to me.

 

[thedelihaus]

With few exceptions, I've felt tubes not to my liking- sure, they have a certain romanticism to the sound, but many I've heard sounded a bit too syrupy, and lacked the ability to convey bottom-end "oomph" and control, and dynamics were less than impressive compared to some of the heavyweight amps I've grown to love.

Well, as I said, there are exceptions. My friend Tom has had some expensive BBC and Abbey Road amps, purchased from England- excellent amps. He's also had some other massive, monster, big-buck jewels in his collection.

There was also a set of rebuilt/restored and modified Dynaco mono blocs I was pretty smitten by.

And I've liked others, like AudioDon's rebuilt Fisher, some of the McIntosh at Audio Lab, and a (very few) more.

However, this last week I've been privy to some great tubes and great synergy.

Tuesday, a fresh 8 hours out of the box, I got to hear a Prima Luna Pro integrated with edl 34s- it has a switch to run kt88s as an option.

It was a glorious performer, with some pricey ribbon-tweeter Monitor Audio Gold GX200s. I've never heard these sound so good.

More on this at a later date.

Today, with the help of Don (AudioDon), I hooked up some Renaissance Audio Preludes. They sounded great on the B&K EX-442 Sonata series amp powering them.

But....

We switched to Don's "Hot Rod" modified asnd rebuilt Harmon Kardon Chorale.

Well, that little beauty was a fantastic match for the Preludes, and boy, boy oh boy, did they sound perfect. Lush midrange, delicate and friendly top end, very heavenly. I was expecting some shortcomings in the bass, but no-sir. tight, controlled, and surprisingly pretty dynamic, too.

I don't know how many times I've been disappointed with tube setups, but in a span of a mere six days, I've heard two fantastic pairings, and for the first time ever in this hobby, am I starting to re-consider my personal aversion to tubes.

 

[audiodon]

Hi,
I'd been declining to comment in this thread because there is a lot that I don't know about or feel qualified to comment on and discussions of a lot of gear I haven't been exposed to.

I will say, however, that chasing a flea powered amp and speakers that will respond to a flea powered amp are something I am not interested in doing. Basically it's because it would mean changing out my whole system, starting with pursuing highly efficient speakers and I'm happy with my speakers.

I'm a push-pull tube guy for now, and when the synergy is good on a tube system, using push-pull or SET, you can run it at quite low volume and still be very satisfied with what you hear and the black background when there's little or nothing going on.

Push-pull eliminates a lot of problems of non-symmetry that can crop up in SET amps. When tube amps, regardless of output technology, do distort, they "soft clip" or move slowly into the distortion range while still maintaining a lot of linear undistorted characteristics. The distortion they do exhibit accentuates even harmonics, not all harmonics. Solid state gear tends to "hard clip" and accentuates all harmonics, unless care has been taken on its clipping characteristics. It's just a different philosophy and what you like may not be what I like and vice versa.

Set is supposed to bring purity to the table but, like many things, this purity often reads better than it sounds. A good SET amp is deceptively simple. Parts tolerances must be microtight though, in transformer inductance, as well as the lead/lag effects of capacitance and inductance in a circuit. That tends to make the simple expensive. That's just somewhere I haven't gone yet. My sense is that it's quite expensive to really do right. Vintage tube amps, at least, were designed and built to work well with 10% and sometimes 20% tolerances and the push-pull design cancels out a lot of potential problems by the forgiving nature of the phase inverter to two output tubes per channel design itself. Plus, the design can push out a lot more power for the components used.

I feel like a lot of things can be read about on the internet and they come up smelling like roses. Like Mark Twain once said, "Wagner's music is a lot better than it sounds".

my analogy might be, "whatever sound you like is the sound for you".

Oh, and here's a link to the rebuild thread on my HK Chorale integrated 6L6GC push-pull amp. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=416045&highlight=restoration+completion

 

[Poultrygeist]

"The bigger is better mentality that is directly connected to more expensive the better is certainly the handicap that stunts most audiophiles from discovering truly high fidelity sound. Will the guys at the audio salon laugh...yes they will. Will your fellow audiophiles laugh when they hear you sold everything and got a 2 watt amplifier...yes they will. Is it important to you? Only you can decide, but I would suggest it has little to do with high fidelity. If you've ever observed how audiophiles rotate through audio gear during their lifetime you might also find it interesting that the ones who finally land on SET amps and single full range speakers seldom find anything they like better" - Steve Deckert

 

[Poultrygeist]

I've had excellent examples of the following tube amps in my home for extended periods over the past two years : Dynaco ST70, Fisher 500, HK Citation, HK Copper Top, Fisher 400, HH Scott, and Primaluna Prologue II. Most of these are well regarded push pull amps and command a good price on the used amp market. I tried all of these driving a pair of Zu Omens yet not one could deliver the inner detail or dynamics of the Miniwatt SET which sells for $200. The Miniwatt S1 makes all of 2.5 watts and was 6moons Realization Award winning amp for 2009.

Few members on this forum have listened to a SET driving single driver full range speakers as most audio salons don't carry them. It's easy to generalize but it's far better to actually hear such a system before forming an opinion.

 

[thedelihaus]

I've heard great results with flea amps and full range speakers. There's no doubt, there is something very special about this setup. I can also say this about a few open baffle designs I've heard.

But I've been happier with the results of my auditions of a really nice push-pull design and two-way speaker.

Again, I've been exposed to the magic of the pure simplicity of a full range driver on a nice SET and I don't challenge the notion a well designed SET flea amp and a full range driver has a charm all it's own, nor do I question the lovely music such an amp and a simple two way speaker has.

But we played this lovely push-pull today on a two-driver speaker, and even at whisper level volume, I was totally jazzed. It has a charm all it's own, and I appreciated the extended top end and robust bottom end it produced.

I've not been swayed from my norm with a full range driver and SET, not as with these few experiences with push-pulls I've been privy to as of late.

I am always open minded and willing to listen to more SET and Full Range examples and glad to embrace them if they work for me.

Lots of positive things have been written about the potential for SET amps.

What an exciting hobby!

 

[thedelihaus]

...The advantage of a SET over other types comes from the fact that it uses the simplest circuit design there is with the fewest parts in the signal path. It's really nothing more than a driver stage hooked to a single ended output stage. It's minimalism and low output contribute to its sonic purity...

Here's an interesting write-up from a fan of SET amps. I cannot find the original author, but he/she shares your enthusiasm of SETs.

I'm only recently being drawn back into interest of tube gear. Are these statements factual? Could you elaborate?

Please note I cut out some "fluff" from the article that was not relevant.




"What makes single ended tube amplifiers superior?"

...Low level signal. There is no other topology that could handle low level signal in such a delicate manner as Single Ended amplifiers do. Push-Pull amplifiers simply can't do that, feedback-based amplifiers can't handle low-level signal properly as well. Even low feedback cause Push-Pull amplifiers affect the signal.



...Even harmonics make sound warm and natural while keeping details and spatial information of sound source; odd harmonics are dominating in Push-Pull amplifiers. Hence Single Ended amplifiers produce the kind of sound that I call "TUBE SOUND".

 

[slippers-on]

Poultry....you never answered my question of why you though Florians expensive SET amp makes no sense.....But its sure looks like audiodon may have given me my answer why they do make sense.....if you can afford it....

A good SET amp is deceptively simple. Parts tolerances must be microtight though, in transformer inductance, as well as the lead/lag effects of capacitance and inductance in a circuit. That tends to make the simple expensive.

Florian has NAT mono blocks . The NAT has 60 Watts of Single Ended Output power and massive output transformers. And if any body knows about NAT, they're not cheap.

 

[BadassBob]

The main factors you have to look at when SET shopping; speaker efficiency, speaker impedance curve, room size, and preferred listening volume. The Electro Voices in my system are rated at ~97dB 1W/m, plus theyre an easy load for the amp. Another thing playing in their favor is the simple crossover, just a single 5.6uF capacitor, and nothing else. My room is 16 x 18...not large, but not small either. The system gets very loud in this small space, the volume is usually about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way up. SET systems take a little more careful component selection than larger, more powerful amps, but once you find the right combo, switching back can be hard to do. Theres tradeoffs in all things audio. I give up a little slam for lush tones and microdetail. To me, a good SET is like that first date with that special someone, you never want it to end.