• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Underwhelming Project debut carbon evo with Acrylic platter

I had a Debut Carbon DC for a long time. It might even still be in my signature. I only sold it because a good friend was lookign for a quality deck and I have an emotional attachment to my Dual 504, and my 3 other record players are in the kilo-buck range given the upgrades I've done. I was always pleased with the Debut Carbon DC. It wasn't on the level of my heavily modified thorens or technics SL-1200 mkII, but I could buy 2 or 3 of the pro-ject for what it would cost to get a similarly equipped thorens or 1200. I felt the Pro-ject was superior to the similarly priced rega, and superior to the fluance and u-turn offerings in the closest similar price range. I don't know why there seems ot be such variability in experience on the pro-ject tables. Mine has been nothing but positive.

The OP is wondering about SQ on the table he has with some of his punk and metal records. My thoughts (which will get you a cup of coffee if you also have $3.50):
1. the type of music you are listening to is notoriously poorly recorded in many cases. Even some of the bigger names (both in terms of band and record label) have really bad SQ on their master recordings. Some of that is because the lo-fi sound is a badge of honor to some in the metal/punk community. Some of it is access to quality mics and recording equipment, some of it is access to quality sound engineers in the studio. Keep this in mind.
2. While I had my Project turntable, the biggest upgrades I did were to (A) put it on a wall shelf, (B) get a really nice phono preamp and; (C) going from red to blue on the ortofon.
2(A) The wall shelf improvement in SQ was way more than just eliminating foot-falls and resonant vibrations from whomever might be walking around. It added clarity and cleaned up the bass, which allowed the lower midrange to come through with more detail.
2(B) The upgrade to the blue stylus was another level of detail added. On some records it was almost too much, but those are records that I know are already "hot" in the higher frequencies.
2(C) I won't delve into the bottomless pit of phono preamp discussion, but suffice to say if you aren't using something on the level of a schiit mani or something on that level, you are going to miss out. A good phono preamp is also nice because you can take it with you when you upgrade turntables.
3. There is a bit of debate about "how to listen" with respect to the dust cover being up or down. In my experience, the exact thing you are describing (muddy mid range, good performance when "not busy" music is playing with a steep drop off when more congested passages are coming through) is characteristic of having the dust cover down while listening. I ALWAYS have the dust cover UP while listening now. That goes for ALL of my turntables. I also moved the living room turntable out from the "cubby" shelf into which it fit so nicely. It seems that when the immediate vicinity around the turntable is more closed in, the sound ends up getting a little muddy.
4. If your signal cables are hanging across other cables, especially power cords, that will give you a bit of haze in the sound, especially around 60Hz (an harmonics thereof) which can translate to reduced definition in the midrange (from my experience)

before ditching the pro-ject, I would try mounting it on a wall, playing with the dust cover up/open, and make sure you have the signal cord reasonably away form other wires. These are all "free" upgrades, if you can do a little DIY. Then I'd also look at getting a better phono stage. Decent ones can be had for under $150.

Good luck!
 
As @klamsoss said. It is a decent table, and when set up and with the Blue cartridge, it actually is quite nice.
Same also for recorded quality of some music.
 
klamsoss said:
I had a Debut Carbon DC for a long time. It might even still be in my signature. I only sold it because a good friend was lookign for a quality deck and I have an emotional attachment to my Dual 504, and my 3 other record players are in the kilo-buck range given the upgrades I've done. I was always pleased with the Debut Carbon DC. It wasn't on the level of my heavily modified thorens or technics SL-1200 mkII, but I could buy 2 or 3 of the pro-ject for what it would cost to get a similarly equipped thorens or 1200. I felt the Pro-ject was superior to the similarly priced rega, and superior to the fluance and u-turn offerings in the closest similar price range. I don't know why there seems ot be such variability in experience on the pro-ject tables. Mine has been nothing but positive.

The OP is wondering about SQ on the table he has with some of his punk and metal records. My thoughts (which will get you a cup of coffee if you also have $3.50):
1. the type of music you are listening to is notoriously poorly recorded in many cases. Even some of the bigger names (both in terms of band and record label) have really bad SQ on their master recordings. Some of that is because the lo-fi sound is a badge of honor to some in the metal/punk community. Some of it is access to quality mics and recording equipment, some of it is access to quality sound engineers in the studio. Keep this in mind.
2. While I had my Project turntable, the biggest upgrades I did were to (A) put it on a wall shelf, (B) get a really nice phono preamp and; (C) going from red to blue on the ortofon.
2(A) The wall shelf improvement in SQ was way more than just eliminating foot-falls and resonant vibrations from whomever might be walking around. It added clarity and cleaned up the bass, which allowed the lower midrange to come through with more detail.
2(B) The upgrade to the blue stylus was another level of detail added. On some records it was almost too much, but those are records that I know are already "hot" in the higher frequencies.
2(C) I won't delve into the bottomless pit of phono preamp discussion, but suffice to say if you aren't using something on the level of a schiit mani or something on that level, you are going to miss out. A good phono preamp is also nice because you can take it with you when you upgrade turntables.
3. There is a bit of debate about "how to listen" with respect to the dust cover being up or down. In my experience, the exact thing you are describing (muddy mid range, good performance when "not busy" music is playing with a steep drop off when more congested passages are coming through) is characteristic of having the dust cover down while listening. I ALWAYS have the dust cover UP while listening now. That goes for ALL of my turntables. I also moved the living room turntable out from the "cubby" shelf into which it fit so nicely. It seems that when the immediate vicinity around the turntable is more closed in, the sound ends up getting a little muddy.
4. If your signal cables are hanging across other cables, especially power cords, that will give you a bit of haze in the sound, especially around 60Hz (an harmonics thereof) which can translate to reduced definition in the midrange (from my experience)

before ditching the pro-ject, I would try mounting it on a wall, playing with the dust cover up/open, and make sure you have the signal cord reasonably away form other wires. These are all "free" upgrades, if you can do a little DIY. Then I'd also look at getting a better phono stage. Decent ones can be had for under $150.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
Really appreciate the comments. Well thought out in regards to my issue. Will start with the "free upgrades" however I do feel using a external Phono preamp is the path I need to going down next and ignore the current inbuilt phono stage in my amp.

Any suggestions to decent phono stages? It doesnt look like we are able to purchase the Schitt brand NZ. For context the iFi Zen Phono preamp costs around $350-400 new in NZ.

Im not ditching the Project TT anytime soon. Here in New Zealand we dont quite have the same range or second hand audio market as others therefore second hand stuff is priced rather high especially if it is any good. The debate between new v 2nd hand then becomes a pretty tight one.

On a side note I wish people were more like this and didnt write this thread off because it is a Project TT! The failure of my direct drive TT was unexpected therefore I bought what was within my budget. I was also under the (possible false) illusion I was upgrading. Im not disheartened just expected more!

Once again appreciate the comments.
 
Don't be too disheartened. It might be that some of the "upgrade" relies on other parts of the system getting up to par so that everything works together as best it can. It may also turn out that it's just not a great match for the amp or speakers or your ears. With a better mount for the turntable, and a better preamp, ANY turntable will sound better.
If I knew what was available in the southern hemisphere, I would try to make a recommendation. If I find some time, I may try and look up what you have access to.
 
One thing to be careful with on Project turntables are the cartridge clips. The wiring on Project arms is very delicate, and there are lots of people who handle those clips too roughly and they have a tendency to fall off the wire. They are a pain in the butt to solder back on, and you run the risk of shortening the wire too much if it happens several times. I would suspect that table would suit your tastes better with one of the Audio Technica cartridges on it, but just be careful changing it and doing the alignment.
 
Hi, A waste of money trying to go for an external phono amp at this stage, unless you want to send around $1000, Yes I know there are OK ones at lower prices. But as they say, Crap in Crap out. You have got to sort the front end out first. The phono amp is the 3rd from last on an upgrade list.
Arm 1st, then cart (go MC) , then P/amp & lastly deck.

Cheers

PS if you can do DIY electronics you can do a great MM P/stage for around $400 to $500, better than anything up to say $4000!!
 
I tend to disagree with the above, as I think a separate phono pre-amp is worth a try. You don't need to spend $1000 to get something decent and any improvement along the signal path would be beneficial. For one thing, I would choose a phono pre-amp with an internal capacitance that allows you to achieve a load capacitance on the cartridge in the recommended range for the 2M Red, which is 150-300pF. So the phono-stage capacitance plus phono-cable capacitance should fall within this range. I'd say you should be looking for a model with an internal capacitance of around 100 or 150pF. It is useful to get one with selectable capacitance, as then you can experiment with different capacitance settings.
 
Crab33 said:
I tend to disagree with the above, as I think a separate phono pre-amp is worth a try. You don't need to spend $1000 to get something decent and any improvement along the signal path would be beneficial. For one thing, I would choose a phono pre-amp with an internal capacitance that allows you to achieve a load capacitance on the cartridge in the recommended range for the 2M Red, which is 150-300pF. So the phono-stage capacitance plus phono-cable capacitance should fall within this range. I'd say you should be looking for a model with an internal capacitance of around 100 or 150pF. It is useful to get one with selectable capacitance, as then you can experiment with different capacitance settings.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of info I am after! Any recommendations in models?
 
hodgkijay said:
This is the kind of info I am after! Any recommendations in models?
Click to expand...
The friend with the EVO upgraded from using the built-in phono-stage of his amp to a Schiit Mani, I think, and said that the 2M Red sounded better, less screechy, but he eventually swapped cartridge to the AT-VM95ML (not an ideal match to the arm but he was happy with the combination). The Schiit Mani 2 has selectable capacitance with four or five settings, so that is another good feature. I have good experience with Cambridge Audio phono pre-amps and I know that the latest Alvo has a capacitance of 100pF. I now use a Musical Fidelity myself with selectable capacitance. If you want to put your toe in the water with something really cheap but well-liked, there is the ART DJ Pre II, which has selectable capacitances of 100 and 200pF.

EDIT: The Pro-ject phono pre-amps have fairly low capacitances of around 120pF and some have selectable capacitance, so they are worth investigating.
 
Last edited:
hodgkijay said:
I know the Ortofon red isn't the greatest cartridge however I did believe the entire system would be better (sound quality wise) than the Technics turntable. For slower music (say Folk, slower Rock, Ska) it sounds good. However the dynamic range of the sound seems to get lost when playing faster rock music. Now I don't believe it is the mix of these records as some songs sound great and others not so much on the same record.
Click to expand...

To put it bluntly the 2M Red sucks. It is a very sibilant and harsh sounding cartridge and will tend to distort quite easily on "busy" sections of music, regardless of genre. Get a better cartridge. One limitation of the Debut Carbon is the flimsy, resonant arm, so keep that in mind. Some folks on this thread might not be aware that the effective mass is around 6g, IIRC, so suggesting a cartridge like the VM95s is not really a good idea. Odds are the bass will be anemic on an arm like that and the cart won't perform at its best.

The higher level 2Ms, the AT VM500/700 series, and the Ortofon 2M series will be more suitable for that arm.

If you are still in the return period you may just want to return the whole package though as problems often develop with the cheap Pro-Jects just outside the warranty period. I would try to get something else if you can. Read the return policy very carefully on anything you buy.
 
I absolutely agree that the AT-VM95 cartridges are not a logical match for a 6g arm and I would not normally entertain recommending such a combination, for the reasons outlined above by patient_ot. However, my friend seems very happy with the VM95ML on the EVO, much happier than with the 2M Red.

As I suggested earlier, I have a feeling the 2M Red is more at home on medium-mass arms - in this combination, I have found it to be dynamically quite exceptional, with instruments having a life of their own within the overall mix. Where I have found it to be irritating is on bright recordings, when it can sound thin and edgy. The 2M Blue delivers a similar kind of sound but more refined and a stylus upgrade from Red to Blue might be worthwhile.

Among the AT-VM500 cartridges, I would avoid the AT-VM520EB, which I found to be pretty awful, with an edgy mid-range and untextured (if that is a word) bass.

In the US, the EVO is delivered with the Sumiko Rainier as the stock cartridge and someone indicated earlier that they are happy with this combination, so that is another option. I have the Sumiko Olympia, the next one up, and it certainly has a warmer, weightier sound than the 2M Red but I think some high-frequency detail and air is sacrificed as compared with the 2M cartridges.
 
I use an Emotiva XPS-1 Gen 2 that is very adjustable for little money. I use it in my main system because of its adjustability to go with an MC cart and back to MM. It stays out of the way sound wise and is very clean.
 
Friend of mine thinks this is a great budget phono stage, for moving coil and moving magnet.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...-excellent-performance.1000436/#post-15719061

Personally I think he is whacked, as I took the Graham Slee from him to use as my secondary phono stage with a SUT and Ortofon cartridge. But hey, who am I to complain? The point is he thinks this is a great phono stage, and its very modest in price.

Given the light mass of the Project arm a cartridge that makes a lot of sense is a previous generation Ortofon cartridge, the OM20. These are higher compliance and would be happy on a lighter arm. Has a good quality elliptical diamond. You can get a line contact diamond in the OM30, but I am not sure your arm has VTA adjustment, and then you have to either shim the cartridge or use varying thickness of mats to get the diamond at the proper alignment. The elliptical is more forgiving in this setting. The OM series can still be found, and are at better prices than the 2M cartridges.
 
The ART DJ Pre II is the one I mentioned earlier and not a bad first step into separate phono pre-amps.

Yes, the Ortofon OMs would be suitable compliance-wise but here you have to distinguish between the plain OMs and Super-OMs - the Supers are brighter and take you into 2M territory, although the Super-OM10 is not overly bright and is more likeable than the 2M Red. I personally favour the plain OM20, easily obtained by purchasing an OM5S and Stylus 20 - this would be my first choice for a light arm.
 
Crab33 said:
The ART DJ Pre II is the one I mentioned earlier and not a bad first step into separate phono pre-amps.

Yes, the Ortofon OMs would be suitable compliance-wise but here you have to distinguish between the plain OMs and Super-OMs - the Supers are brighter and take you into 2M territory, although the Super-OM10 is not overly bright and is more likeable than the 2M Red. I personally favour the plain OM20, easily obtained by purchasing an OM5S and Stylus 20 - this would be my first choice for a light arm.
Click to expand...

That phono stage is not the ART DJ Pro its a different model they make.
 
Has the OP tried a record clamp with the bare platter?

I have found over the past four decades that clamps do help a lot, on just about any table, and especially with plastic platters.
 
I also agree about the quality of recordings being very variable...most pop and rock, even the albums I bought new and when they were in the early stages of pressings in the 70's, 80's or 90's can really suck in SQ...many jazz, classical, folk, and new age records, though, have quite often a pretty sublime sound.

.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom