No but I dont believe that is what my issue is when looking for better mid level sound through busy sections of music? Or am I wrong?
Underwhelming Project debut carbon evo with Acrylic platter
- Thread starter hodgkijay
- Start date
MuseChaser
Super Member
I realize that I am about to speak in generalizations, and there's a chance the following may not apply to the specific recordings you are listening to, but the vast, VAST majority of the music you describe as being 90% of your listening is almost always compressed like crazy in the studio, and ends up with very limited dynamic range.. it's the desired nature of those genres, and what gives it a lot of it's punch, edge, and "grunge." There simply ISN'T much "sound dynamics" or dynamic range to most fast rock music.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying?
tabarddn51
Super Member
The point is about buying a $1000 phono amp is. That if you buy a cheaper one. In a few months you will start to wonder again ''Is my phono amp good enough or is it still my cartridge''
You cannot expect a significant level of performance from these cheap T/T systems, so you just spend more & more money. At least with buying a decent P/Amp you have at least nailed in one piece of equipment,
If he changed his arm, cartridge & phono amp to MC. That leap he need could all be done for around or just over $1,000.
Cheers
You cannot expect a significant level of performance from these cheap T/T systems, so you just spend more & more money. At least with buying a decent P/Amp you have at least nailed in one piece of equipment,
If he changed his arm, cartridge & phono amp to MC. That leap he need could all be done for around or just over $1,000.
Cheers
No thats a fair comment to make. I understand the limited dynamic range for these sections but that's not to say the music gets lost in these sections like it does in this current TT configuration. Its hard to communicate via words but the guitar distortion becomes lost and just becomes a flat noise which seems to effect all the other instruments (incl vocals) in that section. As if there is no (or limited) detail. I have compared these particular sections to a digital copy of the song and while they also arent amazing they are certainly better.
The reason I asked this question originally is that everything outside of those heavy music sections sounds great. Its only the heavy distorted areas with vocals, bass, drums and anything else overlaying all at once become a bit flat and lost. I get peoples comments around punk music not having the greatest studio recordings however a lot of my music is not 70s or 80s punk. Hell a lot of the punk stuff I'm listening to right now is recorded (or rerecorded) in the last 5 years in some reputable studios (ie Blasting Room - Bill Stevenson and Jason Livermore) so I dont think? this is my issue. I could be wrong but I would be very surprised.
Is a better preamp going to clear up that clutter? I am hoping so.
Thanks mate. And I do appreciate that comment. Could you recommend some arms (that would work on the project DC), preamps and cartridges? Its all very well in saying you need to spend $1000 to get where I think I want to be however im far to new to this to understand what that actually means in terms of what those upgrades are. Still all a learning curve to me.
Yes I do. I was going to google how this works tonight and reset this if its required.
op,
In my experience, when I have upgraded a component to something that is better, it made well recorded records sound better but it sometimes also makes poorly records records sound worst. For example, if you have two records, one record is well recorded and another that was poorly recorded/mastered, the two may not sound that different in a lesser system. On a better system, the well recorded record may sound much better as a better system may be resolving however this also may make compression more apparent in poorly recorded/mastered records.
In my experience, when I have upgraded a component to something that is better, it made well recorded records sound better but it sometimes also makes poorly records records sound worst. For example, if you have two records, one record is well recorded and another that was poorly recorded/mastered, the two may not sound that different in a lesser system. On a better system, the well recorded record may sound much better as a better system may be resolving however this also may make compression more apparent in poorly recorded/mastered records.
patient_ot
Super Member
Contemporary punk music like that uses a lot of dynamic range compression in the record and mastering process. By the time a lacquer cutter or DMM mastering engineer gets ahold of it (already "pre mastered"), the recording is already "ruined" and there is not much they can do about it. Throwing that kind of music on vinyl is a waste in a lot of ways and won't do it any favors, especially if the band/label is just uploading files to GZ's FTP server or using some kind of cut-rate studio to get a lacquer cut. Unfortunately that happens a lot in the punk and metal scene. There are exceptions of course.
Not all old punk was recorded poorly either. That is a myth. Some stuff was poorly recorded, some well recorded, and some somewhere in between.
A standalone phono preamp won't fix issues with the record itself or a cartridge which has extremely limited performance characteristics like the 2M Red.
triode
Well-Known Member
In the original post the OP is saying that they did not have this problem with the old tt+cart. I am assuming the op is still using the same vinyl+preamp+amp+speakers, nothing else has changed.
So my guess was that the 2M red was pushing the phono inputs of the amp a bit too hard (or the preamp internally is pushing the amp beyond its limits) on hot passages and compressing the dynamic range of the amp or preamp.
Another suggestion I had but someone already said that to just try the vm95 on the project tt , but the op did not repond to that so dont know they still have the cart or not.
So my guess was that the 2M red was pushing the phono inputs of the amp a bit too hard (or the preamp internally is pushing the amp beyond its limits) on hot passages and compressing the dynamic range of the amp or preamp.
Another suggestion I had but someone already said that to just try the vm95 on the project tt , but the op did not repond to that so dont know they still have the cart or not.
2 points raised here seem to click with my own experiences. I have an old Pro-Ject 1.2 (which is actually a bit like an Expression with a mains AC motor). I bought it new old stock. It had it's cartridge taken out by a dealer probably to salvage a customer's machine and then got left on the shelf for a few years. It came fully boxed with it's component parts still wrapped and had never even been put together.
After setting it up I found that the VTA was wrong, the azithmus was out,all now corrected and it doesn't sound too bad to be honest. It is what it is, a good honest turntable for not much money.
I have tried it with OM5 and 10. AT95 and currently have a Sumiko Pearl MM cartridge in it which doesn't sound bad at all. These are all cartridges which are pretty forgiving. I like the arm, but I still have reservations with the turntable itself.
The one real bugbear I have is that (despite lots of trying) I've never been able to entire get rid of motor vibration into the turntable body. I'll get there in the end.
It's all too easy to compare them with something that's 10 times the price and then declare them as useless.
I think you have to look at what you have with these budget Pro-Ject turntables. A well designed simple turntable which is capable of allowing pretty good reproduction from vinyl recordings for not much money. And they look quite neat and tidy without being covered in plastic either (which is a plus in this day and age).
After setting it up I found that the VTA was wrong, the azithmus was out,all now corrected and it doesn't sound too bad to be honest. It is what it is, a good honest turntable for not much money.
I have tried it with OM5 and 10. AT95 and currently have a Sumiko Pearl MM cartridge in it which doesn't sound bad at all. These are all cartridges which are pretty forgiving. I like the arm, but I still have reservations with the turntable itself.
The one real bugbear I have is that (despite lots of trying) I've never been able to entire get rid of motor vibration into the turntable body. I'll get there in the end.
It's all too easy to compare them with something that's 10 times the price and then declare them as useless.
I think you have to look at what you have with these budget Pro-Ject turntables. A well designed simple turntable which is capable of allowing pretty good reproduction from vinyl recordings for not much money. And they look quite neat and tidy without being covered in plastic either (which is a plus in this day and age).
After all that it was all in the cartridge. 2M blue seems to have provided the sound dynamic I was looking for. And that’s only after playing 3 records. Really looking forward to what it sounds like once it is worn in and with a preamp in the near future.
Thanks to everyone’s comments most helpful some not so much.
Would still love to here from others with the same/similar turntables and hear how they got on.
Thanks to everyone’s comments most helpful some not so much.
Would still love to here from others with the same/similar turntables and hear how they got on.
I've owned a Debut Carbon for a few years now. Ran it as I bought it for a few months, then started the upgrade cycle, which is one of the reasons I got it. I started with the acrylic platter, next the Speed Box, then, as the original Ortofon Red stylus wore out, I replaced it with the Blue. Of everything that I replaced, I'd have to say that the Speed Box and the Blue stylus have made the most significant difference; greater clarity, openness, and rhythm. I have 3 other turntables (Micro Seiki D33/ AT7V, Micro Seiki DQ3/Shure M91, Technics SL-3300/Grado Black3) and the Debut Carbon will pretty much hold it's own.I enjoy it's simplicity, availability, and upgradability. The latest upgrade is the metal sub-platter I just installed today, and am currently evaluating. These little tables are fun, have decent sound out of the box, and can sound significantly better with a little effort.
triode
Well-Known Member
Quite interesting. Of all the comparisons between Red and Blue that are out there, never came across one for significant dynamic range improvement in the Blue. It is the same cartridge and even same stylus shape (elliptical), just the mounting is nude vs bonded. Maybe it does make such a difference.
I am curious to know what you think about your old tt+cart vs this new combo ?
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IMHO, I think you are over doing the thinking on this.
Yes, some upgrades to the table will work. First an acrylic platter. That helps nicely. Next, if your table does not have a built in speed box and only uses the motor and pulley through a wall wart, then get the Pro-Ject speed box. Next, the Ortofon Blue is IMHO the biggest bang for the buck cartridge on your table. It does so much well and very little wrong. I went all the way up to the Black and had good results, however, the Blue was the best compromise for budget.
Also as others have continued to mention, the heavy type of music you mentioned is notorious for being highly compressed. Even old top 40 music I used to get was that way.
My wife loves Journey. She can’t listen to it on my system because it sounds so bad. The only way she can listen and like it is through a car radio.
I wish you well.
+1 on the clamp suggestion. Records on an acrylic platter that are not clamped down tight - can sound a bit thin. LP Vinyl Records are simply not flat, so they need to be clamped down (use a clamp - not a weight) to keep them in contact (to the extent possible) with the acrylic platter. I'm glad the M2-Blue is sorting things out for you (it is a better sounding stylus) - if you can swing it a simple clamp (like a Record Doctor, or a KAB: Super Record Grip Mk2) might give you some additional gain in sound quality consistency.
patient_ot
Super Member
I would be very careful about buying a lot of expensive accessories to "hot rod" a poorly made budget turntable. That turntable has some serious limitations and a new platter or clamp is not going to fix them. The biggest problem in my view is the crappy 2M Red cartridge. I base that on hearing the cartridge at a friend's place on a PDC (same turntable) for an extended period of time. I have also heard the cartridge in other settings and it always sounded terrible no matter what deck it was on. It sucks, period.
That said if it were me I would simply return the whole turntable and get something better or get the old turntable fixed and put a nice cart on it. Usually with threads like this the OP seldom returns, so good luck to them, wherever they are.
That said if it were me I would simply return the whole turntable and get something better or get the old turntable fixed and put a nice cart on it. Usually with threads like this the OP seldom returns, so good luck to them, wherever they are.
Kit Carson
Active Member
My thoughts also patient_ot, send the Project packing and fix the Technics.
Thanks to you two above for your high horse comments. Now that I’ve done the cartridge change the project sounds much better than the technics. Even when I experimented last night changing the cartridges over between the two TT (technics TT issue seems intermittent…. Yay). So unless you guys have used both of these model turntables id quieten down behind your keyboards.
I’m also not operating with a $10,000 + budget in which you seem to be. Each to our own but there’s no need to belittle someone due to the size of their budget. I got the best TT I could afford. I also listen to music which may not be best accustomed to high end TT which many have pointed out. I still love the way it sounds however. Did I make the right decision on TTs? Yeah I think so now with the change in cartridge . Are your comments classic keyboard warrior behaviour? Yeah I think so too.