Unity Horns
- Thread starter dnewma04
- Start date
doucanoe
Registered Audio Abuser
You know Dave, if you set up a proper jig, you could walk that horn through a table saw a few times so you can round that up a bit 
I'm very much looking forward to following along. I've read good things about the Unity design and it will be fun to watch where you go with it :thmbsp:
I'm very much looking forward to following along. I've read good things about the Unity design and it will be fun to watch where you go with it :thmbsp:
Brett
Active Member
Sort of similar paths here, but once I heard horns, even though I could hear the issues with them, I know I'd never really be interested in cones and domes again. My Khorns eventually evolved to a pair of LABhorns for bass (corner loaded), long hypex midbasses 'L' shaped, trax upper midbasses and round trax MF/HF with BMS4590. Never quite sounded integrated as I couldn't sit far enough back, but I was happy with the compromises.
I wanted a set then, and faffed around, and by the time I emailed to buy, Nick had shut down.
I heard William Cowan's Unity's last year and they were bloody amazing, and I'm not impressed easily.
Wow, he keeps turning up more. I bought a pair with a full set of drivers from him a year ago, and Roger (in Melb, Oz) bought another set a couple of months back. We/ve both got AE TD drivers to match them with, in my case a quad of 15X and Roger, 15S. We're both using the passive MF/HF xover on William's page, and active LF/MF.
My flares don't need a lot of work, not sure about Roger's.
It'll be interesting to watch and see how good looking you make yours as your woodworking skills evidenced by your other projects are quite a bit better than mine.
I finally got a start on mine recently, as the last year has been a financial shocker for me and work and other commitments have limited time in my garage to work on them. Hoping to be listening to them in a couple of months, but definitely midyear.
Brett
Active Member
Brett
Active Member
DE25-16. They came as 8R units but I bought new 16R poly phrams for them to suit the xover design.
Sadly, both the DE25-16 and DE25-8 are now discontinued, and replaced by the DE250 series.
I'm planning on following closely in Dave's footsteps with a similar build, and in order to avoid many crossover design headaches I am opting for a 3-way active crossover implementation.
I haven't taken the plunge yet, but I expect to be using the DE250-8 drivers in my build.
I'm planning on following closely in Dave's footsteps with a similar build, and in order to avoid many crossover design headaches I am opting for a 3-way active crossover implementation.
I haven't taken the plunge yet, but I expect to be using the DE250-8 drivers in my build.
Brett
Active Member
I know. I bought the drivers from Nick with the flares and mids. They turn up regularly secondhand though and the phrams are available.
I've also got some DE250-8, but I'll be using these in my sides.
If you're going to order from Misco and need more drivers to make a min order let me know, as I'd be interested in some too.
Looking good, Dave! I have my blanks sanded, and I'm still weighing the pros and cons of adding the mids or not. Nick said in one of his posts that he actually plans to do just the compression driver on his own system for a 1khz and higher horn. That certainly is very appealing to keep the cost and complexity down. However, I do have Klipshorn bass bins that would mate really nicely to a 300 Hz horn. If I build them up and THEN decide to add the mids, it will be a lot tougher to mill the cutouts.
I was thinking of how to measure these, and I may be able to do it. Tom D said in one of his posts that you absolutely must measure acoustic phase in order to have any hope of getting the crossover right. When I use Soundeasy for measurements, it does take acoustic phase up to the limit of the soundcard cutoff, and then I perform a Hilbert transform and tail correct to extend the amplitude and phase response beyond the 22khz boundary of my current soundcard. Down at 1khz, the measured phase may be good enough. Or maybe Tom was implying that the phase of the mids being compressed through the holes is tough to measure. I may ask on diyaudio, and see if I can get Tom to respond and clarify. Or if there are any Soundeasy users here, please give me your thoughts.
If we do get enough people for a minimum buy on the Misco drivers, I may be interested in that as well. Great thread!
Markus
I was thinking of how to measure these, and I may be able to do it. Tom D said in one of his posts that you absolutely must measure acoustic phase in order to have any hope of getting the crossover right. When I use Soundeasy for measurements, it does take acoustic phase up to the limit of the soundcard cutoff, and then I perform a Hilbert transform and tail correct to extend the amplitude and phase response beyond the 22khz boundary of my current soundcard. Down at 1khz, the measured phase may be good enough. Or maybe Tom was implying that the phase of the mids being compressed through the holes is tough to measure. I may ask on diyaudio, and see if I can get Tom to respond and clarify. Or if there are any Soundeasy users here, please give me your thoughts.
If we do get enough people for a minimum buy on the Misco drivers, I may be interested in that as well. Great thread!
Markus
marantzfan
...
Horns have never impressed me either, but I share similar tastes in speakers with Dave, so I'd like to see where this goes.
dnewma04
The Healer
Prior to acquiring the mids, I'll be honest and say that the thought crossed my mind to just make it a 2 way. A few things stopped me from moving in that direction, however. If going with a 2 way, I'd probably take one of three paths. Clone a TAD TH4001 (Because they look damn cool), make a oblate spheroidal horn a la Gedlee Summa (I have heard his and they are one of the best speakers ever built, IMO), or lastly, build or use a horn with a 90x40 coverage pattern to allow the center to center spacing to be tighter between the horn and the TD15M. While I'm sure the unity horn would perform very well as a two way, there are probably better profiles to work with. Conical horns tend to sound pretty good, but it's been proven to me that there are better profiles to use, especially in a typical two way.
The Klipschorn bottom end is an intriguing combination, although you'd probably end up having to pad it down after you worked out the proper CD compensation for the unity. I'm expecting it to be about a 100dB 1w/1m system. My original plan was to use a pair of TD15Ms in an MTM config but finances put a damper on that plan and one pair of TD15Ms is as good as sold to squidward. Unless things turnaround and I can convince him something is better and that he wants to back out.
Measuring them is a concern of mine, as well. I figure the easiest route is to take Danley's crossover design and build them exactly to plans utilizing the same drivers. I suspect soundeasy will be capable of doing what you need it to do, I'm curious if HOLMimpulse will, though.
Check w/ Patrick Bateman at DIYaudio, he claims to have a number of the misco drivers. Might be worth seeing if they are cheaper than Nick.
dnewma04
The Healer
Horns have never impressed me either, but I share similar tastes in speakers with Dave, so I'd like to see where this goes.
I think RayW is another person who isn't particularly enthralled with horns, generally, but was very impressed with Unities. I believe he also heard them paired up with something like 4 Contrabass subwoofers, so that could have been part of it.
Prior to acquiring the mids, I'll be honest and say that the thought crossed my mind to just make it a 2 way. A few things stopped me from moving in that direction, however. If going with a 2 way, I'd probably take one of three paths. Clone a TAD TH4001 (Because they look damn cool), make a oblate spheroidal horn a la Gedlee Summa (I have heard his and they are one of the best speakers ever built, IMO), or lastly, build or use a horn with a 90x40 coverage pattern to allow the center to center spacing to be tighter between the horn and the TD15M. While I'm sure the unity horn would perform very well as a two way, there are probably better profiles to work with. Conical horns tend to sound pretty good, but it's been proven to me that there are better profiles to use, especially in a typical two way.
The Klipschorn bottom end is an intriguing combination, although you'd probably end up having to pad it down after you worked out the proper CD compensation for the unity. I'm expecting it to be about a 100dB 1w/1m system. My original plan was to use a pair of TD15Ms in an MTM config but finances put a damper on that plan and one pair of TD15Ms is as good as sold to squidward. Unless things turnaround and I can convince him something is better and that he wants to back out.
Measuring them is a concern of mine, as well. I figure the easiest route is to take Danley's crossover design and build them exactly to plans utilizing the same drivers. I suspect soundeasy will be capable of doing what you need it to do, I'm curious if HOLMimpulse will, though.
Check w/ Patrick Bateman at DIYaudio, he claims to have a number of the misco drivers. Might be worth seeing if they are cheaper than Nick.
Center to Center is the concern that is making me consider the mids. Although Geddes' Abbeys and even the Summas must be stretching things a bit. I think I remember reading that he valued getting the woofer's off axis response to match the horn's response as a higher priority. If his waveguides weren't so spendy I would seriously consider going that route. Maybe my summer project will be calculating the right profile and turning an oblate spheroid on the lathe.
I'm still kicking ideas around for the bottom end. The khorns would indeed need padded or biamped to match the Unity. I was also looking the Selenium 15PW3 or similar 15 inch woofers.
Where are you getting the reticulated foam? I've done some surfing trying to find a big 'ol block of 30 ppm foam, and I can only find thin sheets.
Markus
TerryO
Super Member
Markus,
I believe that what you're eluding to is Earl Geddes' concern to get a uniform power response, rather than concentrating on overall efficiency. While horns and what Dr. Geddes has termed waveguides have much in common, I have the feeling that the final implementation have very different goals. Patrick Bateman positioned his Summas so that the listening position "is" off axis and they certainly sounded very good.
Did I mention that Patrick's Honda features small unity style speakers in the front with the horn loaded mid-bass under the dashboard? The Bass source is located in the trunk, although I'm not sure if it's a horn, tapped horn or direct radiator. It's certainly the best car audio system I've ever heard.
I think that the K-Horns would certainly work well as a high efficiency source of bass, but it would call for digital delay on the Unity horns to offset the time delay between the K's and the Unity.
Best Regards,
TerryO
dnewma04
The Healer
I bought a 2" thick sheet of reticulated foam from the foam factory on hall road, near Gratiot. I was planning on making layers.
Terry, I haven't heard Patrick's system, obviously, but I have seen the threads. I'd like to hear how it compared to some of the better systems in cars that I have heard. A few friends of mine were sound quality champs at national level events and they were certainly nice installs.
The issue with the center to center spacing is the off axis nulls that are caused. The farther about the center to center spacing, the narrower the vertical window becomes. It's a concern, just not a primary one in my experience. If I could avoid it while achieving other goals, I'd try to. The Summas were designed to be listened to off axis, and have been marketed as such if you call what Earl does, marketing. There is at least one fairly prominent horn system designer that considers the nulls in the Summas as being a significant flaw in the design but in my experience you have to really want to make it an issue with intentionally horrendous placement.
Terry, I'm very curious to hear your opinion of the Summas. IIRC, they were probably not set up nearly as ideally as Earl's in his home, but I'm curious if any of the magic I heard came through.
Terry, I haven't heard Patrick's system, obviously, but I have seen the threads. I'd like to hear how it compared to some of the better systems in cars that I have heard. A few friends of mine were sound quality champs at national level events and they were certainly nice installs.
The issue with the center to center spacing is the off axis nulls that are caused. The farther about the center to center spacing, the narrower the vertical window becomes. It's a concern, just not a primary one in my experience. If I could avoid it while achieving other goals, I'd try to. The Summas were designed to be listened to off axis, and have been marketed as such if you call what Earl does, marketing. There is at least one fairly prominent horn system designer that considers the nulls in the Summas as being a significant flaw in the design but in my experience you have to really want to make it an issue with intentionally horrendous placement.
Terry, I'm very curious to hear your opinion of the Summas. IIRC, they were probably not set up nearly as ideally as Earl's in his home, but I'm curious if any of the magic I heard came through.
TerryO
Super Member
Hi Dave,
I typed out a long and rather detailed answer last night, just to have my computer crash before I could post. The Computer, like it's owner, is getting long in the tooth and pretty cranky. I fully expect to be entered into "The Lee Neidow Hall of Fame" one of these days!
The Summas sounded excellent in my opinion. I'd never heard any of Geddes' speakers, so I gave them a rather intensive listen. I didn't detect any problems that I'd attribute to Center to Center spacing, although I was so impressed by what they did right, that I may have missed some minor shortcomings. Patrick and I carried the Summas in from the parking lot and they were a *lot* lighter that I would have expected from their size. The old knuckle test on the large flat surfaces failed to indicate any problems with cabinet construction. They seem to be well constructed and I believe that Patrick said that the cabinets employed carbon fiber in the lay-up.
As set up by Patrick, the listening position was off axis, although moving back and forth and side to side seems to have had very little affect on the imagining and octave to octave balance. I might add that Patrick's car system exhibits much of the same character. I sat in the driver's seat and my Audio Buddy, Dave Rosgaard was in the passenger's seat and we both thought that the system had been tuned for "our" exact location! This is much like using the balance control in your car to optimize the sound for your location, except in this case both seats seemed optimal.
The room that we were using for the Summa's wasn't great and only a little bit of time was spent setting them up, but what I heard was very good. I'd really like to hear them set up in a world-class listening room like Winston Ma's or Mike Lavigne's to hear what they're fully capable of. As it is, I'd place them with some of the very best speaker's I've heard, and they certainly are a great deal less expensive.
It seems that Dr. Geddes, despite his "unique" personality and sometimes controversial opinions, knows how to design an excellent speaker.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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similost
Rockin and Rollin....
Very cool build Dave, and even cooler you found original drivers. I sue would love to hear a set of these myself. I was talking to the guy I got my TD15's from, and he was talking about these, and said they were very impressive.
Just in case, for the people that don't know what these are, this is a pretty cool page about them.. http://www.cowanaudio.com/unity.html
Just in case, for the people that don't know what these are, this is a pretty cool page about them.. http://www.cowanaudio.com/unity.html