V15-VxMR & Jico in STEREOPHILE

[Pio1980]

I remember TAS praising a $13 Grado in the mid-70s as entry-level audiophile-grade, HPs favorite overall was the ADC XLM MKII IIRC.

 

[dlaloum]

I think you hit the nail on the head...

Advances require ongoing development.... direct drive development stopped in the 80's....

Magasines review current products - and they compare these to each other....

DD's are AWOL....

It's like Lafitte - everyone agrees its a great wine, but it hasn't been seen at a wine show/competition in well over 100 years.... yep it's a great wine, but it simply doesn't feature in any comparisons....

So the self congratulations by BD advocates about how they have the greatest TT's are understandable.... but a little self serving and shallow.

Mind you - DD's have featured in some recent reviews, and have competed very effectively in their price bracket....

I just love the ease of use, and non-existent need for maintenance of DD designs....

Although the aesthetics of some of the BD acrylic, stainless steel, Oracle, Gyrodec style tables still makes be dribble....

 

[dlaloum]

Been giving some thought to the SAS performance and cantilever performance in general (having measure a small host of cartridges).

It seems that the dip between 5k and 10k common to all cartridges (MM, MI, MC, and all cantilever materials I have measured so far - includes various aluminium alloys, boron and beryllium) - is caused by the twisting/skewing of the cantilever - ie directly related to cantilever stiffness.
This is seperate from and apparently unrelated to the cantilever resonance (which can be anywhere from 6kHz to 75kHz+ depending on design and materials)

I need to revisit my measurements of the N97xE-SAS and EmpireLVR's V15VxMR & V15VMR SAS.....

So far (based on memory) I think that the TK9/ATN25 cantilever was the best performer (off the top of my head). (beryllium cantilever, cannot recall whether solid or tube...)
This performance can be measured by how wide and deep the drop off in level is within that upper-mid/lower-high area is by comparison to the 1kHz reference level...
The SAS performs very well there - but I have not tabulated and compared that specific performance parameter.... (I have only become aware of it over the last couple of weeks... after reading the BAS cartridge comparison tests from the late 70's)

bye for now

David

 

[JohnVF]

Been giving some thought to the SAS performance and cantilever performance in general (having measure a small host of cartridges).

It seems that the dip between 5k and 10k common to all cartridges (MM, MI, MC, and all cantilever materials I have measured so far - includes various aluminium alloys, boron and beryllium) - is caused by the twisting/skewing of the cantilever - ie directly related to cantilever stiffness.
This is seperate from and apparently unrelated to the cantilever resonance (which can be anywhere from 6kHz to 75kHz+ depending on design and materials)

I need to revisit my measurements of the N97xE-SAS and EmpireLVR's V15VxMR & V15VMR SAS.....

So far (based on memory) I think that the TK9/ATN25 cantilever was the best performer (off the top of my head). (beryllium cantilever, cannot recall whether solid or tube...)
This performance can be measured by how wide and deep the drop off in level is within that upper-mid/lower-high area is by comparison to the 1kHz reference level...
The SAS performs very well there - but I have not tabulated and compared that specific performance parameter.... (I have only become aware of it over the last couple of weeks... after reading the BAS cartridge comparison tests from the late 70's)

bye for now

David

I have a V-15vmr as mentioned and I really am curious to hear it with the Jico SAS. The problem is, I have a NOS stylus on it, and another waiting in a box that it came in- I'm set for awhile. I do, however, have a V-15III that needs a stylus.

As for twisting of cantilevers, I wander how something like the Dynavector Karat would do with its really short stubby cantilever. Mine unfortunately is missing a channel, and came that way on a used table

 

[dlaloum]

My curiosity got the better of me - I ordered a used but apparently good condition Dynavector Karat 23RS a couple of days back.... for that very reason!

 

[empirelvr]

Well that was the late 70s and early 80s. Things have changed.

That wasn't my point. My point was that today there seems to exist this thought that Stereophile and The Abso!ute Sound dismissed and looked down upon direct-drive from the get-go when in fact, they didn't. Which is a parallel to the subject of this thread, the Shure V15VMR/V15VxMR.

 

[shelly_d]

That wasn't my point. My point was that today there seems to exist this thought that Stereophile and The Abso!ute Sound dismissed and looked down upon direct-drive from the get-go when in fact, they didn't. Which is a parallel to the subject of this thread, the Shure V15VMR/V15VxMR.

Of course, then there are those of us that look down on Stereophile and or The Absolute Sound.

This too is off topic to the original point of the thread.

Shelly_D

 

[dlaloum]

Looking now at measurements of the N97xe-SAS stylus...

slight droop starting at around 3k, getting to its worst at around 6.5k before recovering... back to equality with the reference 1kHz level at around 10kHz

Peak drop off at around 6.5k of around -1.5db.

As comparisons:

Cartridge drop startF finishF worstF worstdB
Grado Gold 1 1kHz 8kHz 7kHz -2.5db
AT Signet TK9e 4kHz 12kHz 9kHz -2db
Pickering XLZ7500 3kHz 11kHz 7.5kHz -2db
AT440MLa Not easily readable due to low cantilever resonance!


I measured all of these myself using the same test record(s). (so these are not based on manufacturer claims/target curves...)

The finish of the dip is often hard to identify, as it is frequently overlapped by the beginning of the influence of the main cantilever resonance.

With the AT440MLa this resonance is sufficiently low, that no dip is apparent at all.... the cantilever resonance begins as low as 4.5kHz (and may begin even lower, but the resonance cancelling out the flex/skew influence results in a flat F-R plot)
The Grado has a cantilever resonance (I am assuming it is cantilever!) at 12kHz - so again the end of the dip is obfuscated.
The Pickering and signet both have their cantilever resonances higher up, which leaves whatever is happening in the midrange and lower high area (up to 10kHz) exposed....

All these are considered excellent cartridges and the TK9e, and XLZ7500s are both high end MM designs....

The SAS betters them both in this aspect. (which implies lower distortion throughout that range)

Testing the V15VxMR SAS with EmpireLVR showed that the cantilever resonance is placed above 20kHz (probably very close above... maybe 21kHz) - but again that midrange cantilever flex drop was between -1db and -2db - bettering the original OEM stylus in this area...

The original claimed a resonance frequency around 35kHz... which I have not been able to confirm - but that would imply a better top end than the SAS potentially as with the SAS the resonance will influence the high end down to around 15kHz... but the resonance does pull the f-r up making it more linear.
The OEM allows the response to droop just a touch, keeping the resonance out of the way at a higher frequency - and potentially providing a better top end as a result - but it appears to suffer a little at the lower end where the SAS appears to have marginally more control.

Swings and roundabouts, these two styli are clearly in the same league...

I should also mention that different SAS styli are tuned differently with respect to the cantilever resonance... my N97xE-SAS has the same midrange drop as EmpireLVR's V15VxMR SAS - if as I suspect this is a symptom of cantilever flex/skew, then it makes sense as they are the same cantilever construction.

The N97xE-SAS however has a cantilever resonance which matches the resonance of the OEM N97xE stylus (roughly) at 14 to 16 kHz (which is balanced out by the inductive/capacitive drop for a flat frequency response to around 16kHz) - the V15V versions of the SAS have the suspension tension wire set tighter - the resulting cantilever resonance is (as mentioned before) somewhere above 20kHz (although not very far above).

I would assume/guess that the SAS EPC205 and EPC202 styli would also have this profile.... and SAS stylis for cartridges where the OEM stylus has a lower resonance (V15III & V15IV for example) - will also have the resonance tuned down for a better match with the original.

Interesting?

bye for now

David

 

[flavio81]

Very interesting David, but i would really like to know how you are measuring the resonance freq. To be honest i'd try a recognizedly good test record with pink noise band, and a preamp using the least possible capacitance (say, 50pF or less) and a loading of 100K or maybe a bit more. That way you can measure the FR of the cantilever and not of the combined system, because you know that the magnetic system will intentionally introduce a resonance (or rolloff) to balance things out.

I wouldn't be surprised if some cartridges have internally some tiny capacitor in them -- or use part of the magnetic circuit as an extra inductor for changing the FR!! The ortofon M20FL came with a tiny capacitor on top of the cartridge pins for example.

 

[dlaloum]

My own testin TT is running with 50pf for that very reason.

And I then deduct the modeled value of a basic LCR model (luckydog's work that!) - to see the performance without the electrical system.

I hesitate to call it the cantilever performance as there may be other factors involved.... I am still trying to understand the difference between permeable and non permeable materials used in the magnetic system... this will be an additional factor.

The BAS tests and the Shure feedback on them gave me the hint for the midrange dip that is so common across all cartridge types... (I previously thought it might be a magnetic based phenomenon.... there may in fact be both at play, but as yet I don't have the understanding to seperate out the magnetic factors)

In any case the resonance comes up quite clearly using a pink noise test record run at 45rpm (20kHz becomes 27kHz.... equalisation has to be adjusted to cater for the change...)

If this does not expose the resonance - I go all out and use my Denon test record - which goes up to 50khz at 33rpm.... and could be taken up to 70kHz at 45rpm.
I do not own a stylus that requires this to expose its resonance. (yet...)

Bit by bit I am trying to document this and put it on my public website...

bye for now

David

 

[nailer]

... I found that many of the turntables that found favor during the late 70's and early 80's in both magazines were direct drives!

HP in particular favored the Technics SP-10 ...

HP was even impressed with the PX-2 (he used it in a couple cartridge surveys) and reading between the lines PHD thought the PL-L1000 was marginally better.

Regarding the SP-10, in the end HP even came around to PHD's impression that the Sony PS-2251 was its equal. That's a 2251 in my avatar.

 

[nailer]

I remember TAS praising a $13 Grado in the mid-70s as entry-level audiophile-grade, HPs favorite overall was the ADC XLM MKII IIRC.

IIRC the original XLM was the ADC much favored by HP and other TAS reviewers. However due to it's extemely high compliance suspension being prone to collapse it fell out of favor. The follow-on lower compliance XLM II, and all other ADCs reviewed were not liked as well - they lacked the XLM's magic.

 

[JohnVF]

Regarding the SP-10, in the end HP even came around to PHD's impression that the Sony PS-2251 was its equal. That's a 2251 in my avatar.

I'm about to put my Clearaudio arm on my PS-2251 (as soon as I have a chance to get it back from loan) and you know what I plan to run on it? Shure V-15vmr! I bet it'll be great.

The 2251 is one of the great under the radar tables. I just don't love the stock arm (the 2250 had a better arm, IMHO, but isn't as easily swapped out).

 

[nailer]

My is the armless version and on which my Black Widow currently resides.

 

[JohnVF]

My is the armless version and on which my Black Widow currently resides.

I just need to drill a new armboard. I'll probably experiment with look and materials. My Clearaudio arm might also be interchangeable with my Linn Basik (I need to look up the spindle distance, but I've read they use the same mounting collar. At least I hope they do).

 

[marcmorin]

I just need to drill a new armboard. I'll probably experiment with look and materials. My Clearaudio arm might also be interchangeable with my Linn Basik (I need to look up the spindle distance, but I've read they use the same mounting collar. At least I hope they do).

The Linn Mounting distance is 211mm. The tiny hole front center of headshell is 229mm from pivot. Easiest arm to set up.

 

[LAB3]

Has anyone used a JICO on a older Shure V15/AC-2? Or a Shure/Realistic RXT-4 JICO? As the Shure topic was posted.... sorry for thread jack.
I have 7 older carts that I am researching to see if they warrant a new styus. I am bringing my Pop's old TT back to life. I should start a new thread.
Or add to my thread about the Shure SEK-2 microscope I am learning how to use.
Louis

 

[dlaloum]

The RXT4 is an M97HE ....

Jico have a SAS for that cartridge... - it will (probably) be tuned as per the M97xE-SAS with a resonance around 14k to 16k Hz....
Which is what you want if you are sticking with standard manufacturer loading.

If you are willing/able to do custom loading (drop the C way down to 100pf or lower, and adjust the R) then you could also use the V15VxMR SAS stylus... results would potentially be better due to the resonance being above 20kHz - but you have to have the right setup for it, and you have to know how to adjust C & R loading.

Not sure (Shure) what an "AC-2" is.... or which V15 you are talking about...

bye for now

David

 

[JohnVF]

The Linn Mounting distance is 211mm. The tiny hole front center of headshell is 229mm from pivot. Easiest arm to set up.

Thank you. I have a template that I printed out but will double check the measurements, of course, before I do it.

 

[majick47]

JohnVF too bad you don't have a TOTL Sony arm to go on your PS-2251 I'm sure they would sound terrific and also have that vintage look to match the turntable, 237/286/1600/PUA-9 etc.