That is eventually what will end up on it, but the armboard is removable and I have the Linn and Clearaudio arms already. I would love any of those, really, especially the PUA-1600. It came with a PUA-113, which isn't really that good sonically to my ears, and looks to have been the stock arm with the thought it would be replaced by many owners, as the arm on the 2250 was a bit nicer (and not mounted to an armboard, but fixed to the non-sprung plinth).
V15-VxMR & Jico in STEREOPHILE
- Thread starter ghamilton
- Start date
That is eventually what will end up on it, but the armboard is removable and I have the Linn and Clearaudio arms already. I would love any of those, really, especially the PUA-1600. It came with a PUA-113, which isn't really that good sonically to my ears, and looks to have been the stock arm with the thought it would be replaced by many owners, as the arm on the 2250 was a bit nicer (and not mounted to an armboard, but fixed to the non-sprung plinth).
beatcomber
AK Member
The SAS arrived today for the V15 Type 4 that I got last week. I've had a week to get familiar with the sound of the (slightly used) OEM Shure stylus.
When I installed the SAS, I needed to realign the cartridge. Pity, because it would've been nice to be able to easily switch back and forth.
With the OEM stylus, I set it at 1.75 grams with the brush down, to improve the compatibility with my thedelihaus-modded SL-1200MK2's rewired and damped arm. I don't trust the effective offsetting force of the JICO brush, so I kept the brush up and set the VTF for 1.25 grams. Soon I will get a KAB fluid damper for my 1200, which should improve the cart's compatability with the Technics arm. Nevertheless, the V15-IV sounds superb already on my table.
I listened to three LPs tonight and could hear it opening up little by little; it went from slightly bright and analytical to deeper, smoother, and better balanced over the course of the inaugural listening session. It will only improve further in the next week or so.
My initial impression of the SAS vs. OEM stylus is very positive. The Shure stylus tracks wonderfully, but the SAS out-tracks it! I'm hearing better detail retrieval with the tiny SAS tip as well. The overall tonality between the two styli is similar, although I expect the bass to deeper soon with the SAS. This thing will be no doubt amazing once it breaks in.
When I installed the SAS, I needed to realign the cartridge. Pity, because it would've been nice to be able to easily switch back and forth.
With the OEM stylus, I set it at 1.75 grams with the brush down, to improve the compatibility with my thedelihaus-modded SL-1200MK2's rewired and damped arm. I don't trust the effective offsetting force of the JICO brush, so I kept the brush up and set the VTF for 1.25 grams. Soon I will get a KAB fluid damper for my 1200, which should improve the cart's compatability with the Technics arm. Nevertheless, the V15-IV sounds superb already on my table.
I listened to three LPs tonight and could hear it opening up little by little; it went from slightly bright and analytical to deeper, smoother, and better balanced over the course of the inaugural listening session. It will only improve further in the next week or so.
My initial impression of the SAS vs. OEM stylus is very positive. The Shure stylus tracks wonderfully, but the SAS out-tracks it! I'm hearing better detail retrieval with the tiny SAS tip as well. The overall tonality between the two styli is similar, although I expect the bass to deeper soon with the SAS. This thing will be no doubt amazing once it breaks in.
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Remember... the Shure damper brush requires 0.5g additional, the SAS damper requires 0.2g (according to Jico, for my N97xE-SAS.. elsewhere I have seen 0.3g suggested - but 0.2g was what I received in an e-mail from Jico when I asked the question)
While you don't have a KAB damper fitted, I would go with the brush...
Once the arm damper is in place, it might be interesting to experiment...
In a perfect world the best place to have the damping is at the headshell end... but the brush is a fixed damping amount, and the trough has much greater tunability....
While you don't have a KAB damper fitted, I would go with the brush...
Once the arm damper is in place, it might be interesting to experiment...
In a perfect world the best place to have the damping is at the headshell end... but the brush is a fixed damping amount, and the trough has much greater tunability....
beatcomber
AK Member
Thanks, dialoum. I would be comfortable doing 1.45 (1.25 + .2) with the brush, since the stated VTF range for the SAS without the brush is 1.00-1.50 grams.
LP-THORN
Super Member
I would say the SAS stylus in general,is not designed to be used with any form of damping.
It is imo designed to work as all other SAS styluses for any other cartridge.
I therefore believe it is beter to experiment without the brush first,and if you are not satisfied,try the brush too.
All SAS styluses seem to have the same or very similar suspension,tracking force range etc...
beatcomber
AK Member
Hmmm...
LP-THORN
Super Member
I have SAS styluses for shure v15typeIII,technics epc-205 and also Jico's own MM-1 cartridge fitted with SAS stylus.
Mechanically all the same,same tracking force range etc.
Similar behaviour,tracking etc....Sound different I guess because of differences in cartridge coils.
In the picture,the Jico MM-1
Mechanically all the same,same tracking force range etc.
Similar behaviour,tracking etc....Sound different I guess because of differences in cartridge coils.
In the picture,the Jico MM-1
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beatcomber
AK Member
Yes, that makes sense.
Allow me to extrapolate....
All cartridges with a compliance of 22cu will therefore work perfectly in all arms regardless of mass !?! (damping is apparently redundant under all circumstances?!?)
Any cartridge mounted on an arm where the mass of the arm perfectly matches the compliance of the stylus cantilever will achieve a resonant frequency of around 10Hz. ( I won't even bother to discuss the problems with an imperfect arm/cartridge match )
BUT there WILL be a resonance (at 10Hz), and there WILL be harmonics of that resonance (20,30,40,50 etc...) - and furthermore there will be intermodulations of the fundamental and its harmonics with the music you are attempting to reproduce....
Unfortunately that is the nature of vinyl replay.
The resonance (even when perfectly located) can be DAMPED..... which reduces its peak amplitude while spreading the overall peak into more of a "hump".
Methods include:
1) Fluid trough at pivot end (like SME, or KAB trough on SL1200mk2)
2) Fluid trough at headshell (Townshend Rock)
3) Servo damping (E/M version of pivot side fluid trough - JVC, Denon, Sony)
4) Cartridge Brush (shure, stanton - shure damping is in the hinge mechanism, -Stanton mechanism is via flexing of the long brush hairs.... not as effective and requires proper "grooming" of the brush fibres)
5) Placing the pivot bearings in a damping fluid bath (many arms, including Jelco, JVC)
Possibly the "ultimate" damping mechanism is the Townshen Rock damping trough attached to the headshell.... consensus places this at the top ranks of turntables of the last 20 years (+).
Reviews and designed comments also reflect on the engineering advantages of placing the damping as near as possible to the cantilever/stylus.
All other solutions are 2nd best - the Shure brush does however have the advantage of being right next to the stylus....
How do you justify your comment?
On another topic - I note you have the Jico MM1 cartridge, I have heard that this is a version of the Philips 400 series - do you know whether the MM1 stylus can be placed on a Philips 400 cartridge?
thanks & bye for now
David
beatcomber
AK Member
Wow, thanks for that info!
LP-THORN
Super Member
I'm not arguing that damping is useful,I agree with you.
What I meant is that a cartridge that is fitted with a Jico SAS stylus no longer has the same compliance as the original stylus,therefore it is wise to experiment on the basis of the new and different specs.
I have bought a few Philips cartridges and although the Jico Stylus 1 can be placed on most of them including the 400 series,I can confirm they are not the same cartridges.
The Jico cartridge is/was a Japanese made one,and for those who would like to experiment,I would suggest to try the body of Sumiko Pearl with the Jico Stylus 1,and be prepared for a lovely surprise
I believe that is the same body,and not Philips
Also,Shelter 201,and the older A&R cambridge 77 cartridges..............ok,there you have it
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I have bought a few Philips cartridges and although the Jico Stylus 1 can be placed on most of them including the 400 series,I can confirm they are not the same cartridges.
The Jico cartridge is a Japanese made one,and for those who would like to experiment,I would suggest to try the body of Sumiko Pearl with the Jico Stylus 1,and be prepared for a lovely surprise
I believe that is the same body,and not Philips
Also,Shelter 201,and the older A&R cambridge 77 cartridges..............ok,there you have it
Thanks for that...
The Jico Stylus1 is the most economical SAS stylus they make.... and if it fits an A&R77, or a philips 400 that makes an economical and excellent combination. - especially if you can adjust C & R loading for optimum (flattest) frequency response...
bye for now
David
LP-THORN
Super Member
:thmbsp:
With sumiko and a&r sound is the same as with the complete jico MM1
There was an A&R 77MG version with magnesium mount that is also very interesting although just a bit heavier than the plastic mount of the others mentioned above,but much more rigid too.
Garrott optim looks similar to a&r 77 body too.
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flavio81
Turntable technician
But it will definitely benefit from it. From the samples that beatcomber put of the M91ED with SAS, it will definitely benefit from damping.
flavio81
Turntable technician
LP-THORN
Super Member
I don't have any means of damping on my tonearms or cartridges,so I can't tell,although I can see the point.
I will soon install on one of my turntables a unipivot audiocraft 3000MC which has damping so I'll have personal opinion.
Years ago when I had it installed on another turntable,it did a good job for an ortofon VMS20EII I had,if I remember well.
I will soon install on one of my turntables a unipivot audiocraft 3000MC which has damping so I'll have personal opinion.
Years ago when I had it installed on another turntable,it did a good job for an ortofon VMS20EII I had,if I remember well.
beatcomber
AK Member
Yes, I was thinking about doing that... but let's wait until after the SAS breaks in a bit. It currently only has about 1.5 hours on it!
LP-THORN
Super Member
Thanks LP-Thorn, we owe you money! I've been waiting for months for this info.
:thmbsp: