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Vacuum record cleaning machine

That is an opinion not fact. I disagree, and I have both kinds of machines.

that is fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have several of both types of machines too.

Its not opinion though. Visual counts (numerical data) were taken on the size and number of particles before and after a given treatment.

In the experiments tried, could not get the vac cleaning process to remove as many particles (visually) as the US machines did.
 
Over the years, and seeing countless articles on records, I remember way back seeing record groove-surface pics under ultra high magnification, and then finding what those record nasties and damages were caused by.

You name it, and of course many of theses damages present-found cannot be corrected by any cleaning process.
And of course not counting for other physical damages present such as scuffs-scratches.

Some real yucky, nasty stuff, molds, fungus, insect-silverfish, etc. You name it!
:cool:
 
I figure I can at least say this much "safely", that our records under actual use will be the final criterion and finding if cleaning results are showing to be effective.

Can we say that a stylus running through a groove is going to do a "bit of its own cleaning", chiseling its way, and yep, all those lovely little exotic Gyger-etc stylus profiles just love digging their way to China! LOL

But we all know there is no such thing as never requiring Stylus cleaning. It's inevitable give or take.

At some point "you're gonna see some serious ****", like Doc Brown said when the Delorean hits 88mph.

Static electricity, air drying versus vacuum. They come into play with their negatives.

The factor of "over-doing it" by whatever processes-products used?

And did other things such as for instance a good number of my LPs being treated with LAST Preservative many many Moons ago?

I don't know, because most if not all, sound like a million dollars!

A lot of MOFI's and Capitols I did way back then, with the "Good Stuff" old formula. Did I actually hurt-damage them in some way? Turn them into a pizza with the works? There were of course other "dope products", Gruv-Glide, etc.

I remember one time accidentally tipping a bottle of LAST, and losing 1/2 of it! Damn. Wasn't cheap stuff and this stuff would evaporate as fast as Butane. LOL
 
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For years all I ever used was the Watts Parastat. It is a brush sandwiched between two felt type pads. I like it so much that now I have three. A friend swears by the Discwasher D4, but I find that it just pushes the dirt around.

A couple of years ago I was purchasing records from a Discogs seller who cleaned all the records that he sells with the Okki Nokki record cleaning machine. I thought WOW even those records that look to be in somewhat dubious condition still sounded great!

About a year ago I purchased a used Nitty Gritty machine with have a jug of fluid. I'm very happy with the results. I still use the Parastat for a quick brush off prior to playing.

Occasionally I find a mint sealed copy of an old LP and have to concur that they most often benefit from a cleaning.

Now this talk of ultrasonic cleaning being so much better has me thinking.

A number of my records were treated with Last or Audio Technica Lifesaver and I still swear by that treatment as the treated records don't attract dust the way that untreated records do. The treated records were relatively clean to begin with obviously it would not be a good idea to cover over dirt with the preservative.

Talk of using tap water for cleaning or rinsing horrifies me.
 
that is fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have several of both types of machines too.

Its not opinion though. Visual counts (numerical data) were taken on the size and number of particles before and after a given treatment.

In the experiments tried, could not get the vac cleaning process to remove as many particles (visually) as the US machines did.
I'm all about data. What data are you referring to?
 
One factor that will effect the degree of any cleaning process be it US, or RCM, is time.

I'm sure many of us has watched videos of a variety of RCM cleaning processes, and voila, the record start to finish is now cleaned in a matter of just a minute or two. So, many who might watch these vids will say,, "Wow, that was quick, I like that, because I don't want to spend lots of time to clean one record.

But, IMO, even the very best engineered record cleaners-solutions with either method cannot, and will not properly perform its task in such a short time. It's a process that requires patience and time to get the best results attainable with whatever products-methods a user chooses to use.

I'd imagine most if not all of these videos are purposely kept short to just show the operation and process is all. And how I myself sure wished it was just that simple and quick.

One might think "Well, why should such take so long to loosen-dislodge such microscopic-tiny dirts?" Well, there's more than just dirt and particulate matter on a record surface.

While some believe that if a little is good, then more is better, and let's "Super Concentrate" and fortifya cleaner to work faster-better often will cause other damages and creates a host of negative effects of their own.

I don't think any will disagree with my above statements.
yes. Quite agree.

time is a key variable in the whole process.
 
As one post mentioned somewhere in the thread, the key on any process is getting a reliable measurement method to judge the grooves pre-cleaning process vs. post-cleaning process.
What we did was take a photo and count the number of particles in a 100um length of groove pre cleaning. Post cleaning take another image and count the number of particles that remained. With US a person can see a 90-95% reduction in the particle count. If anyone has any other ideas, suggestions on other means to quantify this would be very open to suggestions.
 
The following experiments were done in my laboratory when I assembled my first ultrasonic cleaner for vinyl records.

Comparison of ultrasonic cleaning with manual cleaning and some RCMs:
The following cleaning methods were evaluated;
1. Manually scrubbing with a brush using distilled water and dish soap followed by rinsing with distilled water.
2. The original Spin-Clean record cleaner with the Spin-Clean solution.
3. Harry Weisfield's early VPI vacuum record cleaner using distilled water, isopropyl alcohol and a non-ionic primary alcohol ethoxylate surfactant.
4.
A laboratory ultrasonic bath using distilled water and a non-ionic primary alcohol ethoxylate surfactant.

For these experiments, we used newly purchased identical records which were initially played and evaluated for SQ to make sure they sounded similar. They were then cleaned by the different cleaning methods and evaluated again for SQ. The general consensus was that the ultrasonic cleaned record had the best SQ by a wide margin followed by the VPI and finally the Spin Clean and manually cleaned were indistinguishable. We were surprised at the difference in SQ of the ultrasonic cleaned record compared to the other methods. It was like a veil was lifted from the speakers. We were immediately impressed by the improvement in detail and clarity of the ultrasonic cleaned record. Of course this is all subjective and we wanted to know if there was any measurable differences in the surfaces after cleaning with these methods.

The next part of this experiment was to use several different surface analysis techniques to determine the effectiveness of the various cleaning methods at removing known contaminants. A series of known contaminants (oils, greases, lubricants, hard water, finger prints, and peanut butter) were applied to specific areas of each record. Controlled heat (~ 120 F) was then applied to the records to drive off any solvents, simulate aging and induce diffusion and/or any chemical interaction which would make the contaminants more difficult to remove. The records were then cleaned with the various cleaning methods. The surface analysis of the contaminated areas requires cutting the areas into ~1 cm squares. These ~1 cm squares were then evaluated with several different surface analysis techniques. All of these cleaning methods removed significant amounts of surface contaminants but none produced a record with as clean a surface as ultrasonic cleaning. In all cases, ultrasonic cleaning removed significantly more surface contaminants than any of the other cleaning methods. Typically ~2% to 5% surface contamination remained on the ultrasonic cleaned records compared to ~15% to 50% contamination remaining with the other cleaning methods. The range depends on the specific contaminant and specific cleaning method. Some of the cleaning methods were less effective at removing certain contaminants.

The primary analytical techniques that were used to analyze these samples include: Photoelectron Spectroscopy (PES), Optical Microscopy, Thermal Desorption Mass Spectrometry (TDMS), Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM).
 
Thank you Lou G.
What Lou G's post indicates I read in reviews months before I decided to purchase a US set-up.
I indicated 'all' in my post regarding methods, and facts about my system.
I didn’t read any methods or playback systems described by any of the dissenters as playback quality does make a difference. Of course.
Once again,Thank you Lou G.
FM



1k
 
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The following experiments were done in my laboratory when I assembled my first ultrasonic cleaner for vinyl records.

Comparison of ultrasonic cleaning with manual cleaning and some RCMs:
The following cleaning methods were evaluated;
1. Manually scrubbing with a brush using distilled water and dish soap followed by rinsing with distilled water.
2. The original Spin-Clean record cleaner with the Spin-Clean solution.
3. Harry Weisfield's early VPI vacuum record cleaner using distilled water, isopropyl alcohol and a non-ionic primary alcohol ethoxylatesurfactant.
4.
A laboratory ultrasonic bath using distilled water and a non-ionic primary alcohol ethoxylate surfactant.

For these experiments, we used newly purchased identical records which were initially played and evaluated for SQ to make sure they sounded similar. They were then cleaned by the different cleaning methods and evaluated again for SQ. The general consensus was that the ultrasonic cleaned record had the best SQ by a wide margin followed by the VPI and finally the Spin Clean and manually cleaned were indistinguishable. We were surprised at the difference in SQ of the ultrasonic cleaned record compared to the other methods. It was like a veil was lifted from the speakers. We were immediately impressed by the improvement in detail and clarity of the ultrasonic cleaned record. Of course this is all subjective and we wanted to know if there was any measurable differences in the surfaces after cleaning with these methods.

The next part of this experiment was to use several different surface analysis techniques to determine the effectiveness of the various cleaning methods at removing known contaminants. A series of known contaminants (oils, greases, lubricants, hard water, finger prints, and peanut butter) were applied to specific areas of each record. Controlled heat (~ 120 F) was then applied to the records to drive off any solvents, simulate aging and induce diffusion and/or any chemical interaction which would make the contaminants more difficult to remove. The records were then cleaned with the various cleaning methods. The surface analysis of the contaminated areas requires cutting the areas into ~1 cm squares. These ~1 cm squares were then evaluated with several different surface analysis techniques. All of these cleaning methods removed significant amounts of surface contaminants but none produced a record with as clean a surface as ultrasonic cleaning. In all cases, ultrasonic cleaning removed significantly more surface contaminants than any of the other cleaning methods. Typically ~2% to 5% surface contamination remained on the ultrasonic cleaned records compared to ~15% to 50% contamination remaining with the other cleaning methods. The range depends on the specific contaminant and specific cleaning method. Some of the cleaning methods were less effective at removing certain contaminants.

The primary analytical techniques that were used to analyze these samples include: Photoelectron Spectroscopy (PES), Optical Microscopy, Thermal Desorption Mass Spectrometry (TDMS), Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM).
And this is a fair test? LOL Why didn't they throw in the Discwasher, and Parastat as well?
 
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"These ~1 cm squares were then evaluated with several different surface analysis techniques."

What techniques? How do they assess the sound quality of the record when played?
 
148 pages on record cleaning, TL;DR. Maybe I'll have an AI give me a summary.
It does have an abundance of information and covers a lot of topics, but TBH after reading and extracting the applicable information, the manual cleaning method I use can easily fit on a 3"x5" card.
 
If a collector only has a vac machine all is not lost though. A collector can use a 10 min soak treatment with a surfactant solution keeping it wet for all 10 min (need to really level the surface the record sits on first in both X and Y planes). Then use the VAC machine to suck off the solution and the particles that have been removed from the groove and are floating in suspension in the cleaning solution.
Yes, a soak is a good idea. I use a US tank for this purpose prior to the usual scrub, pressure rinse and vac. A soak is essential if one is using enzymes to give them time to work. When i did my experiments with enzymes I used a steam appliance to keep the fluid on the record warm and well agitated. A simple 10 minute dip in a warm US tank is much more effective.
 
And this is a fair test? LOL Why didn't they throw in the Discwasher, and Parastat as well?
Please explain what is not fair about the test?
The analytical techniques used to analyze these surfaces are time intensive, some taking several hours to complete for one sample. The total analysis took several weeks to complete. So we had to limit the number of cleaning methods that we can evaluate. The cleaning methods evaluated in my post #71 were ones that my colleagues were using at the time and we wanted to compare them with my ultrasonic cleaning method that I had just completed evaluating.

Regarding the Dishwasher, we already knew that it was not very good at cleaning records based on optical microscopy analysis as well as listening evaluations. So we did not want to waste a lot of time doing detailed analysis of records cleaned with the Discwasher that we already knew did not compete with the other cleaning methods. None of my colleagues or myself used the Parastat but I doubt it would clean records as well as the evaluated methods.
 
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These ~1 cm squares were then evaluated with several different surface analysis techniques."

What techniques? How do they assess the sound quality of the record when played?
The Analytical techniques are listed at the bottom of my post #71. Here they are again.

The primary analytical techniques that were used to analyze these samples include: Photoelectron Spectroscopy (PES), Optical Microscopy, Thermal Desorption Mass Spectrometry (TDMS), Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Scanning Electron Microscopy (SEM).

We assessed the sound quality with listening tests. My three colleagues and myself listened to the various newly purchased and cleaned records on our own audio systems in our own listening room. So 4 different audio systems were used to evaluate the various cleaning methods
 
Please explain what is not fair about the test?
The analytical techniques used to analyze these surfaces are time intensive, some taking several hours to complete for one sample. The total analysis took several weeks to complete. So we had to limit the number of cleaning methods that we can evaluate. The cleaning methods evaluated in my post #71 were ones that my colleagues were using at the time and we wanted to compare them with my ultrasonic cleaning method that I had just completed evaluating. Regarding the Dishwasher, we already knew that it was not very good at cleaning records based on optical microscopy analysis as well as listening evaluations. So we did not want to waste a lot of time doing detailed analysis of records cleaned with the Discwasher that we already knew did not compete with the other cleaning methods. None of my colleagues or myself used the Parastat but I doubt it would clean records as well as the evaluated methods.
Too many variables involved, time, cleaners used to give a proper evaluation. My comments about Discwasher-etc were tongue in cheek.

Sure, I'd suspect after smearing Peanut Butter on a record, greases, and other contaminants, the US will easily come out the winner due to being submersed in a US bath buzzing away and perhaps a longer soak time versus a regular-standard cleaning attempt on any RCM.

How many repeat attempts with an RCM under these circumstances will one get results? Maybe 20 repeat attempts, and will still likely fall short.

It's then like washing stained-dirty clothes in a washing machine, versus one trying to manually spot clean a stain-spot on some clothing, the washing machine will easily be superior.
 
While I'm very pleased with my Nitty Gritty machine and swear by the Parastat for a quick pre-play wipe this thread has got me thinking about US cleaning. Is it really that much better?

Looking on Amazon I see an "Uargd" Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaning Machine for less than $200 CAD. Is it any good? The price certainly seems right! The HumminGuru Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner is also available on Amazon but prices are in the 1K range! Too rich for my blood!

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