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Vintage turntable repairers -- your least favorite decks to work on

bangsezmax

Turntable Whisperer
Subscriber
One of the other threads got me thinking about this today . . .

While I genuinely love fixing vintage turntables, there are a few that just aggravate the heck out of me. Some of these are due to general design issues. Some of them are because my batting average in getting them operational isn't what I'd like.

This may also be helpful to people trying to decide what to buy. I imagine I'm not alone in NOT wanting to see these decks walking in my shop.

-- Bang and Olufsen -- pretty much any of them.
They look fabulous, and they sound great when working well. No question about either of those facts. But I hate telling customers, "the cartridge alone is going to set you back at least $100." And that's the tip of the iceberg. Everything about B&O's from a design standpoint is just plain weird. The wiring is weird. The mechs are weird. And why would you design a turntable with a proprietary -- and very fragile! -- MC cartridge and not give it a f***in' armrest??? What were those crazy Danes thinking?

-- Dual 12xx belt drive units -- the incredibly weak link on these units is the "accordion" motor spindle pitch control. It's a stupid design to begin with -- the cone up top spreads out the flanges on the expandable spindle pulley. Who the heck thought that was a good idea? And to make matters worse, the bracket that holds that whole contraption together is cheap plastic and VERY prone to breaking. And that little ribbed belt . . . just bad decisions all around.

-- Zenith changers circa late '60s early '70s -- Here's a brilliant idea -- enclose the tricky little spring-loaded power switch in the most brittle plastic available. What could go wrong?

Honorable mention (as this is a particular design ailment and not a specific model issue): Direct drives with runaway motor issues. I've seen these on Technics, Pioneers, Sansuis, etc. Seems 75% of units with this issue are linear trackers. They are a bear to fix, IMO. If someone knows the secrets (besides bad solder joints), please spill the beans. Those make me very sad.

Who else has some un-favorites they'd like to share?
 
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I'm certainly not at your level, I'm strictly a hobbyist that likes to restore vintage turntables. I have done more than 50 of various brands.

Wanting to try a linear tracker, I bought a Mitsubishi LT-20 for a good price. That LT-20 was very hard to figure out. I looked at it for a couple hours trying to see how to get it apart. Finally I just started taking out screws and pieces, talking pictures along the way and got it stripped down. I like to take them down to bare plinth and veneer them.

I recovered it in Brazilian rosewood and managed to get it all back together. Surprisingly, it actually worked.

My son has it in his system and loves it.

I have done other fairly complicated restos, such as the Pioneer PL-570, but that LT-20 was the hardest.

Jon
 
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I'm kind of like you jnoyes, but am up to maybe 100 or tables.

I'm getting pretty good with Dual and CEC types, even with B&O and various linear trackers. I have an LT-20 and a couple of Rabco equipped Harman Kardons waiting for a rainy day and I think they will just take some time to get right.

I keep pushing some Perpetuum Ebners to the back burner as I have not been very successful with them yet. One I am looking forward to though is a PE 2040 as it is just too darn pretty and worth being refurbed.
 
Here's a couple pics of the Mitsu

Ericmitsu008.jpg


Ericmitsu004.jpg
 
I've done an LT-20. Fantastic tables. Intimidating to work on, but not frustrating, IMO. They are well-designed.

I've done a Rabco too. They're actually simpler than they look. But they aren't like anything else.
 
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I've done an LT-20. Fantastic tables. Intimidating to work on, but not frustrating, IMO. They are well-designed.

I've done a Rabco too. They're actually simpler than they look. But they aren't like anything else.

I've read that the Rabcos tend to constantly need adjustment, so I've stayed away.

What's your take on them?

Jon
 
Of the ones I've overhauled, the only one I've taken issue with is the Weathers Townsend. Its just not well engineered. The drive motor is a clock motor with a rubber drive tire on it, and it is attached to the suspended sub-chassis so all motor vibration goes into the platter. The spindle bearing is a hollow plastic tube with a ball bearing in the end for a thrust plate. It won't hold oil, so the bearing and the spindle wear into one another. I was able to roll the ball, but I can't fix the spindle. I forget the specifics of the arm pivot, but its similarly cheesy, involving a post in a plastic collar for horizontal pivots and a couple of ball bearings and some sort of clip for the vertical. To preserve the idler wheel, there is a cable thats part of the power switch. its supposed to push on the motor to tip it away from the platter. It just pushes against a rubber block, and it doesn't secure well so the cable doesn't really hit it solidly enough to be effective.
 
Of the TTs I've fixed, the Garrard Lab 80 and BIC 1000 were the biggest time sinks. Eventually I did get them both working, but it took me DAYS of troubleshooting.

Could be I'm just slow, though.
 
Hey bangmax,you ever work on a Hitachi direct drive? They're known for speed wavering problems. I repaired mine by recapping [about a dozen caps] and cleaning the control pots and diddling with them,running true now.It's model ht 550.An elegant looking table and very quiet.
 
The absolutely worse turntables to work on are those the owner has attempted to and failed to fix. You would not believe the damage I've seen that owners inflict with a screwdriver, pliers, and a can of WD-40!
 
Dual. Or, any of the old console mounted tables. It took a combination of three Magnavox pulls to get one working unit that would stay on speed and function properly.
 
The absolutely worse turntables to work on are those the owner has attempted to and failed to fix. You would not believe the damage I've seen that owners inflict with a screwdriver, pliers, and a can of WD-40!
Ugh! QFT.
 
Dual. Or, any of the old console mounted tables. It took a combination of three Magnavox pulls to get one working unit that would stay on speed and function properly.
I think the idler-drive Duals are a joy to work on because it's typically the same trouble spots. The only thing that really hangs me up is when that main mechanism pivot bearing gets frozen up. Those are a wrestling match to get apart.

The belt-drive Duals are a different story, as I mentioned in the OP.

Console changers are all over the map. I don't mind the Magnavox/Collaro/Micromatic units. Those are usually sturdy. Not a big fan of the GE's or Sears/Silvertones. Too many cheap parts on those. Garrards and BSRs are pretty easy, although it seems every Garrard needs a new idler and every BSR has a frozen platter bearing.

Getting speed right on an idler-drive changer is an obsession of mine. Probably should be a separate thread.

Here are my tricks:

1 - Make sure the idler is really viable. It helps to have spares around because two idlers that look identical condition-wise may have vastly different levels of torque when put into use. Rubber conditioner is your friend, but it can only do so much. What bugs me on those is having the table all disassembled and then having to wait for a re-tread idler to show up from V of M.
2 - Motor mounts. These are often overlooked, but if the rubber grommets are saggy and worn out, nothing is going to work right. Those are a cheap fix too.
3 - Make sure there's not gunk on the motor pulley. No brainer there.
4 - "Feel" the motor action (spin it by hand) and see if it feels smooth and easy. If it feels sticky, you gotta take the motor apart and clean the bearings. This is a pain, but sometimes that's the weak link in the chain.
5 - Last resort: If you're SURE that the above items have been addressed and you're getting adequate torque (the auto-mechanism works as it should with no real sluggish spots in the cycle), the final frontier is to change the diameter(s) of the spindle pulley.
--If it's too fast, you file down on the pulley until it's on speed (believe it or not, this is the recommended method I found in a Garrard service manual).
--If it's too slow, the only thing I've found that works is adhesive tape cut to the exact circumference of each step of the pulley (you can skip 16 RPM:-)). The trick is finding tape of the exact thickness to get you on pitch. Like I said, this is a last resort. It does work. When I do a repair like this, I'm sure to let the customer know so that they can bring the deck back for remediation maintenance if/when the tape comes off.

Also -- and this is extremely important when it comes to pitch -- you must measure with the stylus on the record. A lot of those changers have high VTF and will introduce some drag. I've seen it where putting a new stylus actually changed the pitch (and for sure using the 78 stylus on an LP or 45 can slow things down in some cases).

Old changers can be a real pain, but they can also be fascinating little puzzles. I get a buzz every time I get one from non-functional to fully functional. Bringing back the dead . . .
 
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I haven't kept any records, but I figure I am easily over 1K repairs and counting. There is only one brand I won't work, besides Crosleys of course...
 

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I haven't kept any records, but I figure I am easily over 1K repairs and counting. There is only one brand I won't work, besides Crosleys of course...
Yeah, my number one with a bullet. The only good B&O is one that is already working perfectly. I should steal that pic for my avatar. :scratch2:

I've made some money fixing Crosleys. Terrible design, cheap parts, awful sound. But I'll fix them if I can. And people will pay to have them fixed . . .
 
And people will pay to have them fixed . . .

I just can't, everything feels like it is about to break off
when you touch it. I tell people that fixing a Crosley would
be like repairing a Bic lighter.
 
I usually find the pure mechanical TT are the easiest to work on. It is quick to see where the issue lays and then you can go about fixing it.

The higher level fully electronic units are harder to work on, especially if they start to run proprietary chips. I do a cap change on all electronic controlled TT if the TT requires some service.

I have a misbehaving Sansui SR-929 which I will have to pull down, re-cap and restore in the very near future. Part of me is a little excited in working on something I haven't worked on before, but a part of me is apprehensive in having to deal with another electronic controlled TT.
 
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