Vintage turntable repairers -- your least favorite decks to work on

[dr*audio]

Dual idler drive turntables are my least favorite because I can't figure out how the automatic functions work, and fiddling with that damn steuerpimpel is a PITA.
I will NEVER work on another Linn. Gluing the arm bearing needles in place is just nuts!
Diect drives are easy. You need an oscilloscope and some electronics troubleshooting skills. If it's running away, it isn't getting the FG signal from the motor. If the platter won't turn continuously or cogs, one of the drive phases is missing, or a coil is open.

 

[dshoaf]

Biggest mess of a turntable: BSR 810. Period.

Why does it take hundreds of parts just to rotate an LP and move a tonearm into place and return? Let's see how much gyrating it needs to do first.

Second biggest pain: TT's with proprietary, multifunction chips with no documentation on the chip's internals. There are some nice TT's out there but if the electronics are the problem, better start looking for a parts unit.

I've found Rabco - the HK versions - to be relatively easy to work on, actually. Duals never caused much of any problem as long as replacement parts can be obtained, too. At least the German replacement parts fit properly with no shimming or futzing. Those English TT's, however, are a different story.

I've had similar experiences with vintage German and English sports cars:

German Sports car: If you have to force the replacement part into place, _you_ are doing something wrong.

English Sports Car: If the part fits perfectly, _you_ are doing something wrong. You have no place to install the shims.

Sorry to be generalizing, here, but this was my experience as a Warranty Repair Station for Dual, Garrard, BSR and the Japanese stuff in the 70s.

Oh, one exception to the British comments above: SME tonearms. Lovely cases of well-executed engineering. Simple to operate and simple to maintain. You paid for the pleasure, of course.

Cheers,

David

 

[Montycat]

Biggest mess of a turntable: BSR 810. Period.

Why does it take hundreds of parts just to rotate an LP and move a tonearm into place and return? Let's see how much gyrating it needs to do first.

Did one and it actually worked out well.

Second biggest pain: TT's with proprietary, multifunction chips with no documentation on the chip's internals. There are some nice TT's out there but if the electronics are the problem, better start looking for a parts unit.

True. Gave up on a JVC DD or 2 that refused to behave

I've found Rabco - the HK versions - to be relatively easy to work on, actually. Duals never caused much of any problem as long as replacement parts can be obtained, too.

The ST-7 I got from you still performs admirably well. :thmbsp: The ST-6 I have and another ST-7 a friend owns I hope to have working as well soon.

At least the German replacement parts fit properly with no shimming or futzing. Those English TT's, however, are a different story.


English Sports Car: If the part fits perfectly, _you_ are doing something wrong. You have no place to install the shims.

I got a chance to get a dig in on a Jaguar V-12 owner the other day and he didn't even realize it. He was on the side of the road with the hood up and a mechanic leaning over the motor as I was walking by. I said: "Huh, don't think I've ever seen the hood up on a Jag before" He thought I was serious and wanted to show off. I kept walking away, laughing to myself.

 

[bangsezmax]

Dual idler drive turntables are my least favorite because I can't figure out how the automatic functions work, and fiddling with that damn steuerpimpel is a PITA.

Direct drives are easy. You need an oscilloscope and some electronics troubleshooting skills. If it's running away, it isn't getting the FG signal from the motor.

I'll fix your Duals if you fix my runaway DDs. Or we can teach each other. I just want the dang things to work.

 

[stereofisher]

BSR 710 and 810!!!

Biggest mess of a turntable: BSR 810. Period.

Why does it take hundreds of parts just to rotate an LP and move a tonearm into place and return? Let's see how much gyrating it needs to do first.

Second biggest pain: TT's with proprietary, multifunction chips with no documentation on the chip's internals. There are some nice TT's out there but if the electronics are the problem, better start looking for a parts unit.

I've found Rabco - the HK versions - to be relatively easy to work on, actually. Duals never caused much of any problem as long as replacement parts can be obtained, too. At least the German replacement parts fit properly with no shimming or futzing. Those English TT's, however, are a different story.

I've had similar experiences with vintage German and English sports cars:

German Sports car: If you have to force the replacement part into place, _you_ are doing something wrong.

English Sports Car: If the part fits perfectly, _you_ are doing something wrong. You have no place to install the shims.

Sorry to be generalizing, here, but this was my experience as a Warranty Repair Station for Dual, Garrard, BSR and the Japanese stuff in the 70s.

Oh, one exception to the British comments above: SME tonearms. Lovely cases of well-executed engineering. Simple to operate and simple to maintain. You paid for the pleasure, of course.

Cheers,

David

Those BSRs were a pain in the ass! Could never figure them out. I feel your pain. I have fixed many Duals. Only the steurpimples on the 1219/1229 make me crazy. Before I go I want to learn how to fix that issue. Heard BICs can be a pain but my dump find works well. But it it's stuck gong to 7 inch records on auto start instead of landing at the start of a 12 in LP. Anyone know how to get a BIC 960 to start at the beginning of a 12 in record?

 

[KentTeffeteller]

BSR 810! What you got if Jaguar Cars designed a record changer. The cams in that changer would not be out of place on a Jaguar XKE. It's as complex as that engine.

 

[Decibel_116]

I normally don't bash Technics, but the SL-QD33 is the most aggravating one I have ever tried to repair. It uses a very complicated tonearm auto mechanism that uses a single servo motor for all automatic tonearm functions - including cueing. They ones I see most have the "stuck with the tonearm cued in the up position" problem. This is not one of errors described in the service manual. After rebuilding four of these tonearm mechanisms, two turned into semi autos, the other two went directly back into stuck mode. These also use a Technics proprietary processor. I will attempt these no more.

 

[eb2jim]

I've had fits with plenty but only cashed out on a few. I had a couple of runaway Pioneers -both free - that I weighed the hair pulling and electronic mess to replace all caps vs the possible outcome - and parted them out. Larger Garrards tend to need work and idler replacement and you end up with a cool but eh performance machine. Plus the motors over time degrade and correct speed is impossible/unrepairable. If I found one in immaculate shape in a thrift for $10 I would still pass on it. I have. Good for someone else.

I had a BSR 810, and it is a mechanical nightmare. However one great redeeming quality for that and the 710: their basic parts interchange with classic Elac Benjamin Miracord turntables. Spindles, platter, mat, base, etc - people who know better insist this stuff was made by BSR, but the exterior stuff is identical to the Elac stuff.

 

[bangsezmax]

Only the steurpimples on the 1219/1229 make me crazy. Before I go I want to learn how to fix that issue.

Find the right wire. I'm fond of Monster Cable S16, the black stuff. The insulation is nice and rubbery. Chuck the wire, and keep the insulation (with Monster, the round and square sides work equally as well). Cut it into 1/8" nibs. Slide them over the shaft where the old steuerpimpel was.

Monster has discontinued this wire, but it's still out there on eBay. By my calculations, a 50' spool would yield about 10,000 steuerpimpel replacements. You might not need that many . . .

Heard BICs can be a pain but my dump find works well. But it it's stuck gong to 7 inch records on auto start instead of landing at the start of a 12 in LP. Anyone know how to get a BIC 960 to start at the beginning of a 12 in record?

The usual lube the mech, etc apply here. But on BICs, I've seen some where one or more of the plastic pins that sit upright on the main cam had broken off. And to confuse matters, I've heard that some of the pins were removed at the factory for certain models. Either way, those pins are a weak spot.

I've had success fixing BIC mechs by drilling holes where the old pins were and putting in small screws covered in shrink tubing as replacements.

 

[bangsezmax]

I normally don't bash Technics, but the SL-QD33 is the most aggravating one I have ever tried to repair. It uses a very complicated tonearm auto mechanism that uses a single servo motor for all automatic tonearm functions - including cueing. They ones I see most have the "stuck with the tonearm cued in the up position" problem. This is not one of errors described in the service manual. After rebuilding four of these tonearm mechanisms, two turned into semi autos, the other two went directly back into stuck mode. These also use a Technics proprietary processor. I will attempt these no more.

I had one of these came through. Nasty issue, you are correct. Glad I wasn't the only one stumped.

However, it made a fine tonearm donor for an SL-Q300 last week.

 

[bangsezmax]

Larger Garrards tend to need work and idler replacement and you end up with a cool but eh performance machine. Plus the motors over time degrade and correct speed is impossible/unrepairable.

+1. The last deck I had to use the tape-on-the-motor-spindle trick on was a Type A.

I had a BSR 810, and it is a mechanical nightmare. However one great redeeming quality for that and the 710: their basic parts interchange with classic Elac Benjamin Miracord turntables. Spindles, platter, mat, base, etc - people who know better insist this stuff was made by BSR, but the exterior stuff is identical to the Elac stuff.

I've noticed this with a Realistic Lab 24A that is in the shop. It's like the BSR/Elac love child.

 

[dr*audio]

I'll fix your Duals if you fix my runaway DDs. Or we can teach each other. I just want the dang things to work.

Deal! At least we both know who to ask for help now!

 

[kirk57]

The usual lube the mech, etc apply here. But on BICs, I've seen some where one or more of the plastic pins that sit upright on the main cam had broken off. And to confuse matters, I've heard that some of the pins were removed at the factory for certain models. Either way, those pins are a weak spot.

I've had success fixing BIC mechs by drilling holes where the old pins were and putting in small screws covered in shrink tubing as replacements.

There were 3 pins on the original red cam; one of them was a cam follower, the other, shorter ones were for tripping something else, forget what. In any case, at some point BIC realized the second short pin was actually making things worse and omitted it. I just cut mine off...

 

[vinylisfinal]

B&o....pita!

 

[audiojones]

Denon DP-51F or pretty much any of the fully automatic Denon tables. More complicated inside than the average receiver or amp, and all just to play records!

 

[flavio81]

Dual 12xx belt drive units -- the incredibly weak link on these units is the "accordion" motor spindle pitch control. It's a stupid design to begin with -- the cone up top spreads out the flanges on the expandable spindle pulley. Who the heck thought that was a good idea? And to make matters worse, the bracket that holds that whole contraption together is cheap plastic and VERY prone to breaking. And that little ribbed belt . . . just bad decisions all around.

:thmbsp:

Well said. It seems it was a quick and dirty way to get variable pitch on a belt drive. The better implementation would have required an eddy current brake, a motor controller, or an intermediate idler wheel a la Thorens TD124.

You have created a nice thread, now i will tell you what turntables i have not liked working on so far:

Thorens TD-125MKII.

- The main bearing is fixed to the top plate so you can't turn the turntable upside down without creating a big mess with the oil.
- Re-oiling the bearing is also a messy affair because the sleeve bearings are just 'floating' inside the bearing well, so if you oil the bearing well and then try to insert the sub-platter, 90% chances are that the top sleeve bearing will pop out and you will have to do it all again...
- The fact that the suspension leveling and height interacts with the azimuth relationship between the motor pulley and the sub-platter, means you have to correct both to make sure the belt never pops off...
- As you know, many of these have a bent motor spindle because it is located in a way the platter can knock it during (non-careful) transport.
- The clutch inside the motor pulley is a baaaad idea for sound quality IMO.
- The motor board uses the uA709 prehistoric opamps which are sensitive to static, heat, the moon phase, and the like. I replace them with 741 opamps (there is a way to make them work)
- The light bulb inside the motor board can be damaged if you're not careful -- and then you're screwed because you require the exact type ... it is an active part of the AC oscillator.
- You have to re-align the suspension if you change arms (but then this is true for many suspended designs)
- The stock plinth is IMO way too flimsy for supporting the brute solidness of the metal frame and top plate. Can't put the turntable standing on its side without risking it to break.

Thorens TD-145MK2 and TD-166MK2

- Same problem with the bearing as the TD-145MK2.
- The detachable tonearm wand connector is a source of bad contact problems... a real pain.

Note that all the above does not say anything about the sound quality of those turntables, which is pretty good.

 

[flavio81]

+1. The last deck I had to use the tape-on-the-motor-spindle trick on was a Type A.

You can also put some nail enamel on the spindle to increase the speed, then sand it off slightly to decrease the speed until correct. Works great.

 

[flavio81]

Now, with Dual idler wheel turntables i have not had too many problems so far (two 1225 and one 1229 in progress), because i had some NOS (new old stock) idler wheels, so service was easy

I had one Dual 1019 come into my hands and the motor spindle won't turn. It was stuck. Could not open the motor frame either, it was too hard to open. So i had to give up on the turntable
I own a 1229 right now and it has the tonearm elevator problem. I have decided to leave it as it is.
But the Dual steuerpimpel is an easy thing to replace, you can make an "ersatz steuerpimpel" by smart use of the eraser that comes with some pencils + some glue.

Other troublesome turntables:

- Lenco L78: the auto-stop mechanism is a pain to calibrate correctly so it reliably stops on the end of the record and does not stop prematurely.
- The tonearm drive belt of the Technics SL-10 and SL-7 is not an easy thing to adjust/replace... And those TTs are tightly packed. A loose tonearm drive belt is the source of thuds and noises during reproduction of quiet passages.
- By the way the auto-stop calibration of the TD-145MK2 also took me longer than i liked. It's an electronic adjustment but the circuit wants to play games on you.
- I have a friend who repairs Garrard 401 and 301 turntables. I'm afraid that fully servicing one to be sure that it meets audiophile expectations would be a bit time consuming, there are some finer things that need to be right such as the 3 little springs that hold the eddy current magnet adjuster in a 'floating' fashion, for example.

Turntables that are a joy to service?

- Lenco L75 and also the L78 for the most part -- everything important dissasembles easily: the bearing, the motor suspension, the motor itself, tonearm, etc. And i have a lot of spare parts.
- My beloved Sony PS-2251, everything modular, well laid out, and a build quality that would put most current "audiophile" turntables to shame. Massive yet compact, beautiful yet elegant, smooth sounding...
- Technics SL-1401 and similar TTs very easy to service -- and as most Technics of similar series you can access some of the electronics from the top. Connectors are used between boards so it's really easy to separate them. I can't say the same of the cheaper Technics turntables, though.
- Most belt drive TTs with AC motors are also very easy to service in general... The problem is getting a good quality belt of the correct dimensions and thickness.
- Dual 701 is easy for the most part, although i have not attempted recalibration of the DD motor (i have an oscilloscope + the original documentation for doing it, though.) Mine has a long-term speed drift problem, but isn't a big deal.

So as you can see i don't want to service Thorens turntables unless someone wants to resurrect a TD-124. I have also passed on some Perpetuum-Ebners because the auto mechanism is convoluted to the extreme, but i have vowed to service any good idler wheel turntable with heavy platter that comes into my hand. Or buy it.
The cheaper Technics p-mount turntables are too flimsy to be liked, although they can sound good enough for enjoying the music.

I would never want to service a Rega RP1 as well because every time i touch one, hate overpowers me and then i want to split it in two with an axe.

 

[bangsezmax]

You can also put some nail enamel on the spindle to increase the speed, then sand it off slightly to decrease the speed until correct. Works great.

Awesome trick! I'll have to try that next time. You could even color match!:yes:

 

[bangsezmax]

I own a 1229 right now and it has the tonearm elevator problem. I have decided to leave it as it is.

This is an easy fix now -- buy a set of these. it comes with 6 o-rings which make a perfect replacement for the elevator ring.