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Vintage Turntables: Time to Throw in the Towel?

C

cmnparlance

Active Member
All three of the vintage turntables I've owned over the past 5 years (1 belt drive and 2 DDs) have had speed issues, and I have never been able to get the strobes locked in and perfectly still. Using the RPM phone app with the strobe at its most stable always reveals the platter is moving a little too fast or slow, and with some nontrivial wow/flutter.

I get that these are 40-45 year old machines and they may be a bit wonky. And I suppose the .14% W/F reading I get on my entry-level early '80s Technics is still better than, say, the current Fluance tables which only promise .2% brand new.

Am I just being too picky? There are a few videos on YouTube like this, where people say they're locking in the speed but you can still clearly see the strobe dots moving (near the end of video):


This makes me think that perhaps I'm expecting too much. OTOH I have seen, wth my own eyes, tables where the lights are rock solid and don't move at all. Is this just the difference between a cheaper vintage table and something more pricey?

Everyone says that if you're on a budget, it's better to get an old turntable than any of the new ones, but I'm starting to wonder. I guess my question is: is there anyone out there who has a basic vintage deck with none of these speed problems, or do they just come with the territory?

Thanks!

-Stephen
 
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Anything 40 years old needs to be serviced. Vintage entry level tables are just that, entry level. Try a higher end vintage table that has been serviced. My JVC QL-A7 quartz locked DD motor is very stable as is. My other tt uses the same TT 71 motor drive but that has been serviced. Should be stable for another 40 years.

BillWojo
 
Old stuff requires maintenance, sometimes more often than one would like. Some folks enjoy tinkering while others find it a nuisance.

I spent many years messing around with old turntables, but nowadays I'm enjoying the rock-solid, hassle-free performance of my not-quite-vintage SL-1200MK2 (w/ KAB mods).
 
My bargain-basement Denon DP-15F locks on speed with .04% W&F. You don't say which TTs you've owned, but you should be able to get decent numbers on a vintage DD. OTOH, if you're not hearing speed wobble on a sustained piano note you may be too picky about measurements.
 
If the strobe dots are moving slightly back and forth, more often than not this means that the platter strobe marks are not spaced perfectly evenly, that's all. It happens even on very good turntables, for example I watched a couple of videos about the new all-singing, all-dancing Technics SL-1200G today and I was surprised to see that in one of these videos, the strobe dots were clearly moving both vertically and laterally.
 
If you are using the phone app to measure W&F remember that it is more of a novelty than a precision tool. That said I get under 0.05% with my phone app on both my PL-L800 and also on my TD-124. I think your turntables are either cheap to begin with, not working properly, and need service, or your measurements are flawed.
 
My new plan is, when the old stuff gives up I'm buying a new replacement. Also, I've had good luck selling non working gear when I'm done with it.
 
If you are on a budget, avoiding new is one way to save money but most here talk about the couple/few hundred buck used tables being all they can be and better than new. Most aren't saying go look for a bottom of the line table from back then and you will have vinyl bliss.

When you get to the bottom tables offered, the later in the 70s the better up to the early 80s when the CD took over and bottom end tables became just pressed plastic junk. One needs to look at vinyl engine and see what to expect from a vintage table. Of course, there is the experience of akers with their lower end tables, too, some work very well.

You didn't name names so I got no idea if you have stuff that wasn't much even when new or if you have some of the desirable lower models. But for speed accuracy, one needs the correct belt, clean speed controls and of course quartz lock DD should be better than servo-locked dd.
 
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I've got a Rega RP6 that has w/f around between .12-.18 .....
can I actually hear that with my ear? No? Would I have been pissed if I had bought it at full MSRP??? hell yes.

I've got a 60+ year old belt drive ROK that consistently gives .05 w/f ... it seems a crapshoot honestly. Some of the vintage DD turntables I've come across have had astonishingly low w/f others are in the neighborhood of the Rega.

I honestly wish I never would've found the RPM app because it sheds light on problems I never knew existed that wouldn't have ever bothered me. This can be exciting when a solution is easy to find but ruin my enjoyment of what is an otherwise perfectly satisfactory turntable.

With your technics have you replaced the belt and deoxed the speed control pots? Polished and cleaned the motor pulley? The belt path? It is always fun to see numbers improve on the RPM when these adjustments are made.

I do have an AT-LP120 that gives great w/f numbers especially at 78RPM +- .02

Good luck! Have fun!
 
With a very small drift, I doubt such is noticable even with a very discerning ear. But I know such does get noticable at some point. Heard it with my own VPI HW-19 when I first got the table back in the day that it ran slightly slow. Strobe discs, first a cheapie, then the KAB confirmed it, and the music does then seem to lack proper pace and timing.

To throw in the towel, and move on is a decision one personally has to make. It sort of comes down to investment and involvement with vinyl.

I have one friend who has over 4000 LPs and probably another 1000 45's, and still enjoys and is content with a Technics SL-1600MKII Table and some variety of vintage MM Cartridge on board.
 
Panamafred said:
I've got a Rega RP6 that has w/f around between .12-.18 .....
can I actually hear that with my ear? No? Would I have been pissed if I had bought it at full MSRP??? hell yes.

I've got a 60+ year old belt drive ROK that consistently gives .05 w/f ... it seems a crapshoot honestly. Some of the vintage DD turntables I've come across have had astonishingly low w/f others are in the neighborhood of the Rega.

I honestly wish I never would've found the RPM app because it sheds light on problems I never knew existed that wouldn't have ever bothered me. This can be exciting when a solution is easy to find but ruin my enjoyment of what is an otherwise perfectly satisfactory turntable.

With your technics have you replaced the belt and deoxed the speed control pots? Polished and cleaned the motor pulley? The belt path? It is always fun to see numbers improve on the RPM when these adjustments are made.

I do have an AT-LP120 that gives great w/f numbers especially at 78RPM +- .02

Good luck! Have fun!
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Interesting, I also find that W&F is lower at 78RPM with the speed app.
 
I have a Garrard Lab 80 and AR 77-XB that are up to snuff. I think simplicity is the way to go with older equipment. Less to go wrong. And like the other guys said, proper service is important. As is the lack of abuse by previous owners.
 
Just like a car , you wouldn’t let it go years without an oil change and maintenance, no matter what the age. Same should go with a table , you can most likely do much of the maintenance yourself if your a bit handy but if not then find someone who can refurbish your table if possible.

Audiofreak71
 
I have a Bang & Olufsen TX2 that's working nicely after I got a replacement cartridge/stylus.

But other than that, I'm 0-3 in vintage turntables I've bought, and I've learned the hard way that vintage turntables can be frustrating. I don't think any of them need much work, but while I can do some problem solving and some simple things with amplifiers, I'm clueless about turntables.

That said, they're all pretty nice and have potential (Beogram RX2, NAD 5020A, and Kenwood KD3070), but need someone to work on them who knows what they're doing. so it's off to an expert at some point.

I'm not giving up on the vintage turntables, but if I buy another I'll likely pick up a Fluance, or decent Audio Technica so that I know something's working while I deal with the old ones.
 
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Vintage gear is like anything else vintage, upkeep is required. To what extent depends on what shape said piece of equipment is in. This is why I buy new. I like to listen to music, I have other things to tinker with.

Now, I have to admit that I recently acquired a Pioneer SX 780 from a coworker for a case of beer. It’s in great shape cosmetically. The dc offset is a little off however. After the first of the year, I’ll start looking for a shop to go through it. Then, some speakers. Vintage or new, :dunno:
 
Once vintage gear has had a total service it doesn't need any more maintenance that any brand new table. It's not like because it's 40 years old it needs to be serviced twice as often. Actually, because the better ones were built so much better, they probably require a bit less service in the long run.

BillWojo
 
A platter may be slightly off center, but if balanced properly, it will hold speed perfectly but the strobe on the outside of the platter will wobble back and forth. Obviously this isn't an ideal situation, but I have had tables where the strobe is fidgitty, but sound perfectly fine. Given that the whole point of balancing platters is that a perfect looking concentric platter may actually have voids, my suggestion isn't ridiculous, though one would certainly hope that platters and their spindle holes would always be perfectly concentric.
 
parman said:
My new plan is, when the old stuff gives up I'm buying a new replacement. Also, I've had good luck selling non working gear when I'm done with it.
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A good record player should more or less last as long as you do, if you maintain it properly. Most old decks are long overdue for maintenance, and once brought up to standard will last 5-10 years before needing more service. On simple decks service may include a new belt and lubrication. On a complex deck it may include replacing capacitors, cleaning controls, and worn out switches and sensors.

A person should evaluate the amount of work required to bring it back to like new condition before purchasing a vintage deck, so as to avoid being stuck with a "white elephant", where the cost to repair exceeds the market value. Also, certain vintage decks simply age poorly and should be avoided.

Operating a vintage deck which has not been maintained is entirely inadvisable since it will neither perform well nor be reliable.
 
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