Vintage Turntables: Time to Throw in the Towel?

[cmnparlance]

Anything 40 years old needs to be serviced. Vintage entry level tables are just that, entry level. Try a higher end vintage table that has been serviced. My JVC QL-A7 quartz locked DD motor is very stable as is. My other tt uses the same TT 71 motor drive but that has been serviced. Should be stable for another 40 years.

BillWojo

Hi, thanks for the response. I'm going to write out a more detailed response here, but in short--two of my decks are more mid-range than low-end, and they have both had work done on them by experienced people. That's why this is so frustrating.

 

[cmnparlance]

If you are using the phone app to measure W&F remember that it is more of a novelty than a precision tool. That said I get under 0.05% with my phone app on both my PL-L800 and also on my TD-124. I think your turntables are either cheap to begin with, not working properly, and need service, or your measurements are flawed.

Thanks for the reply. I know the RPM app isn't meant to get a perfect reading, but the W/F measurements I've gotten do seem to map onto the strobe problems pretty consistently. And the W/F readings have been high enough that it makes me think they're reflecting a real problem that's there.

 

[cmnparlance]

To all those who replied, thank you. I got unexpected busy in the past day or so (and didn't get email alerts for some reason) and so I'm just now seeing all the responses. I should have been specific about my turntables and the measurements I've taken with the RPM app, but I didn't want to scare people off with too long a post.

The belt drive is a Dual 601. It was very thoroughly serviced by an experienced tech a few years ago but he couldn't get the speed to lock in, saying it was probably the belt. I tried two different belts without much improvement. Using the RPM app recently, I got a W/F reading of .2. I know these apps aren't totally accurate, but it seems like if the reading they get is this bad, it means something.

The first direct drive is a JVC AL-A40. JVCs don't seem to be as highly regarded as some other brands, but my research revealed that this model is considered pretty good and something of a sleeper. It's solid and feels pretty high quality. Seems like it was a mid-level one in its day. This one was looked at by both a professional and another guy who's a hobbyist, both of whom I think know what they're doing (and have serviced probably a hundred or more turntables between them). Both did what they could, including cleaning, I think lubing, and replacing the capacitors, but in the end it didn't make much difference with the speed issues. This one measures .4 W/F on RPM app--it's the one where the strobe dots wobble the most.

Finally, the third DD is a Technics SL-D212. This is probably the cheapest TT of the three, and I don't think it's had any work done on it in several years. Ironically, it's the one that performed the best on my W/F tests, coming in at around .14. Accordingly, this is the one where I can get the dots to stay the stillest, although they still drift and waver.

What's strange is that the first two are quality decks and have both been given hours of attention by very experienced people. This is what makes it frustrating to hear people say, "you can't buy a low-level TT and not service it and expect it to work perfectly!" because that's not at all what I've been doing. The internet is full of forum comments from people saying "I just cleaned my old table with DeOxit and now the speed is perfect," and to have had such different results is discouraging.

I think I will use a strobe disc and see what kind of results I get--seems like perhaps the strobes on the TTs themselves might be off? Then again, this wouldn't really help me with W/F, only absolute speed.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for their responses.

 

[cmnparlance]

My new plan is, when the old stuff gives up I'm buying a new replacement. Also, I've had good luck selling non working gear when I'm done with it.

Yes, this is something I consider. I could probably sell these TTs for OK money and buy a nice new one. But the general consensus on places like this is that you'll get much more for your money if you buy vintage and have it serviced by a professional--which is exactly what I've done with disappointing results.

 

[cmnparlance]

Deleting this because I mistakenly replied to the same person twice.

 

[cmnparlance]

If the strobe dots are moving slightly back and forth, more often than not this means that the platter strobe marks are not spaced perfectly evenly, that's all. It happens even on very good turntables, for example I watched a couple of videos about the new all-singing, all-dancing Technics SL-1200G today and I was surprised to see that in one of these videos, the strobe dots were clearly moving both vertically and laterally.

Thanks, I thought about that too. But on the JVC deck with the most issues (see my longer response with more info) the dots wobble somewhat consistently with each rotation of the platter, and the RPM app showed W/F around .4%, leading me to think there really is some serious wavering of speed going on.

 

[BillWojo]

I'm a big JVC fan so I just spent 5 minutes searching for speed issues on that model. There are several pots that must be cleaned, several of them are on the circuit board. There is also a microswitch that selects 33 or 45 RPM, that needs to be cleaned or replaced as well.
JVC built some of the very best high end tables and built drive systems for both Micro Seiki and Yamaha for statement tables.

BillWojo

 

[cmnparlance]

A platter may be slightly off center, but if balanced properly, it will hold speed perfectly but the strobe on the outside of the platter will wobble back and forth. Obviously this isn't an ideal situation, but I have had tables where the strobe is fidgitty, but sound perfectly fine. Given that the whole point of balancing platters is that a perfect looking concentric platter may actually have voids, my suggestion isn't ridiculous, though one would certainly hope that platters and their spindle holes would always be perfectly concentric.

Yeah, I'm realizing that a lot of issues with turntables simply have to do with very small imperfections throwing the whole thing off, so that they'll either have speed problems that no amount of maintenance (short of buying a new platter or whatever) will fix, OR which result in apparent "problems" (like your inaccurate strobe example) that aren't actually that big a deal.

 

[cmnparlance]

I'm a big JVC fan so I just spent 5 minutes searching for speed issues on that model. There are several pots that must be cleaned, several of them are on the circuit board. There is also a microswitch that selects 33 or 45 RPM, that needs to be cleaned or replaced as well.
JVC built some of the very best high end tables and built drive systems for both Micro Seiki and Yamaha for statement tables.

BillWojo

I don't know much about JVC but I really like the look and feel of this table. That's why it's so disappointing that I can't get the issues totally sorted out. The person who did work on it replaced several resistors/capacitors on the control board and I believe cleaned all the pots. As for cleaning the microswitch, is that something that someone who's not terribly technically inclined could do at home?

 

[T68]

On the 601, maybe something is loose in the pitch adjust mechanism causing speed to wander.

The pitch control is handled by that the pulley is split and there's a conical pin pressing inside the pulley to change the diameter and hence the speed.
If this assembly is worn, not serviced it may wander a bit and cause speed variation.
Disclaimer: this is a theory based on what I saw on the 601 I had.

Also belts are critical. Did you try Thakker's belt? It's supposed to work best on this model.

Good luck, hope you get atleast one of your decks sorted out.

 

[Mister Pig]

I own no records. Have no more TTs. Likely that was my last phono cart install/adjustment, and I wouldn't trust a store to do it right these days, unless a high-end one. It was my last hurrah for vinyl... you understand. I was always a Thorens TD-165 user and big fan back in the day. The Technics was a gift for my parents who really needed a fully automatic model,,, they're gone now and the table came back to me; it is going to a 14yo girl who asked for a cheap turntable from WalMart for Christmas. Included with it are a Fosi Bluetooth amp which will synch with her phone, a brand-new-looking-and-sounding pair of Minimus 7s, Pyle phono preamp, new AT cart, Discwasher brush still with original D4 fluid in the handle and D-Stat mat. I told the girls mom to leave me out of it - I gave it to her to give to her daughter and told her to take full credit for the gift. Don't know the daughter. I also gave the mom a pair of Edifiers and a Bluetooth TX/RX so she could synch also. The mom was thrilled-to-overwhelmed. She was my Christmas project this year. 'Tis more fun to give than to receive.

Have you heard of the adopt a pig for New Years program? Its a very worthwhile cause. You could still get on board and I know of a deserving pig that we could give you contact info for.

 

[musichal]

Have you heard of the adopt a pig for New Years program? Its a very worthwhile cause. You could still get on board and I know of a deserving pig that we could give you contact info for.

But pigs are so high maintenance I wouldn't be able to meet their standards and support them in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed. And i would so hate to disappoint a good pig.

 

[parman]

Yes, this is something I consider. I could probably sell these TTs for OK money and buy a nice new one. But the general consensus on places like this is that you'll get much more for your money if you buy vintage and have it serviced by a professional--which is exactly what I've done with disappointing results.

Same here, I can't find anybody to fix anything correctly.

 

[gary7]

My KD 500 always had a slight wavering - the strobe markings moved back and forth about the distance of the markings themselves. Nothing I did got rid of it. Can't say I ever heard the variance, but it was there from new.

I got a KD-500 couple weeks ago. Added new oil to the motor. Holds speed very good, but there is a very slight waver up & down.

 

[gary7]

Fixing turntables is an art. You have to feel it to do it right. Pretty sure the techs don't feel it most of the time. Once you start doing it yourself, then yes, there is a goldmine of good turntables out there.

Also, think I finally got my Pioneer PL-L1000 up to snuff.

 

[cmnparlance]

Same here, I can't find anybody to fix anything correctly.

To be fair, the first guy who looked at it went above and beyond, replacing capacitors/resistors and spending hours trying to sort out the problem, and asked for almost nothing in return for his effort—if he’s reading this, thank you!

The second person also spent some considerable time with it completely free of charge, so I don’t mean to denigrate his work either. The sense I got from both of them was that the issue wasn’t really fixable, at least not without spending many more hours troubleshooting, perhaps trying to track down hard to find parts, etc.

 

[BillWojo]

I would try and clean that switch, it's part of the speed control circuit. You need some Deoxit contact cleaner. Take the bottom off and take some pictures of the switch. It's the one activated by the speed selector. From what I read somewhere, it selects one of the two speed pots, any resistance on the contacts is going to mess with the speed. Worth a shot.

BillWojo

 

[cmnparlance]

If anyone is interested, here is a video of the strobe on the Technics (the one with the least strobe movement):

Obviously it could be worse, but it’s still noticeable. People out there: would this prompt you to try to get to the bottom of the issue, or is this within your tolerable range?

 

[gary7]

Can th

If anyone is interested, here is a video of the strobe on the Technics (the one with the least strobe movement):

Obviously it could be worse, but it’s still noticeable. People out there: would this prompt you to try to get to the bottom of the issue, or is this within your tolerable range?

Can this be slight imperfections in the platters themselves, not so much that the speed is that far off?

 

[jrtrent]

People out there: would this prompt you to try to get to the bottom of the issue, or is this within your tolerable range?

I don't know anything about strobe dots or phone apps, but my opinion is that you and the people you've taken them to have done all you reasonably can with these vintage turntables. If they have audible speed issues that keep you from enjoying your records, I would move on to something else.

Earlier you had mentioned Fluance's 0.2% wow and flutter specification as being "bad." I haven't heard a Fluance, but I have owned a Stanton STR8-80 and currently have an AT-LP120XUSB that have that same w&f spec, and I've never heard any speed issues with either. A friend of mine has the Music Hall USB-1, with a w&f spec of 0.25%, and we heard no issues during the in-store demo or at any time in my friend's home during the nearly six years he's enjoyed it. One professional reviewer of the Fluance RT81 was specifically asked in the comments section about w&f, and his response was, "I did not detect any wow or flutter in the listening tests. . . I did not hear anything that I would identify as wow and/or flutter in the Fluance turntable." In other words, it was inaudible to that reviewer, just like it is for me with the 'tables mentioned.

DIN released standards for home products that could be termed "high fidelity," and their expectation for speed accuracy was that it should be no more than 1% slow or 1.5% fast, and with w&f no more than 0.2%. Gramophone magazine considered these standards "quite respectable," but people can and do differ in their sensitivity to speed issues. My suggestion is that you audition your next turntable for audible speed problems before buying it, or at least have return options if it doesn't meet your expectations. Both Fluance and U-Turn, for example, have a 30-day in-home trial period; Fluance even pays the return shipping cost (if purchased directly from Fluance and you live within the contiguous USA and Canada).

One member here wrote of his U-Turn, "I am a musician. Pitch fluctuations are like nails on a chalkboard for me. Without arguing how it stacks up with any other products, I enjoy the performance of my U-turn Orbit Plus. It tracks well. Sounds great." It should be noted that the Orbit Plus ($289) comes with U-Turn's acrylic platter, which is supposed to offer "improved speed consistency and clearer, more detailed playback." Their specs show 0.175% w&f for the standard platter, reduced to 0.125% with the acrylic, so that latter value was good enough for at least one sensitive listener. My ears are more in agreement with what Fluance says, "To an extent, all turntable decks have wow and flutter—even if they’re new. Wow and flutter can be slight, too, and a lot of listeners can’t “pick up” on wow or flutter ranges up to .25 percent. Under this percentage, the sound distortion simply can’t be picked up by most."

The Fluance RT81 got a good review by What HiFi, their enthusiasm only tempered because, at least at the time of writing the review, its UK price was the same as competitors like the better-sounding Rega Planar 1. In the US, though, the Fluance is $249.99 while the Rega is $475.

https://www.whathifi.com/us/fluance/rt81/review