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Vintage Turntables: Time to Throw in the Towel?

The useful thing about the RPM Speed and Wow app is the ability take relative measurements, not absolute. Comparing different turntables or comparing before and after maintenance or mods to one table. No one is saying it's perfectly accurate, but it's damn close.
 
62caddy said:
Most of the uber high-end model turntables I've seen are belt driven. Costs a lot of money to get older technology to compete with the new is the point.
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The *point* I learned in the 70s is about isolation. Which is why I quickly sold my (much cooler looking) Technics DD after hearing a Linn Sondek using the same arm/cartridge.

You observed earlier the simplicity DD. Yep, all the motor's vibrations are transmitted directly to the platter!

Yes, I definitely found audible differences with most everything in Harry's phenomenal systems. :)
 
E-Stat said:
Sorry, many folks hear the difference.
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Oh, I don't doubt this. Having owned all major types of turntables (idler drive, suspended belt drive, direct drive) I can attest that there is a very noticeable difference in presentation between them.

E-Stat said:
Which is why belt drives have continued to dominate the upper echelon of turntable performance.
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I would argue that's because most so-called audiophiles are vain, they want to own something made by a boutique manufacturer, and most boutique companies don't have financial resources or technical knowledge necessary to produce a direct drive turntable.

Notably, Harry Weisfeld of VPI fame and Marc Gomez, the lead designer of SAT, claim that direct drive is the best drive system in existence. I think they know their stuff well enough to take their claims seriously.
 
stratokaster said:
I would argue that's because most so-called audiophiles are vain, they want to own something made by a boutique manufacturer, and most boutique companies don't have financial resources or technical knowledge necessary to produce a direct drive turntable.
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Whatever you wish to believe.

stratokaster said:
Notably, Harry Weisfeld of VPI fame and Marc Gomez, the lead designer of SAT, claim that direct drive is the best drive system in existence. I think they know their stuff well enough to take their claims seriously.
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Why then do they produce the Titan?

"Utilizing a machined acrylic/aluminum/acrylic sandwich-design chassis on top of our pneumatic air-suspension isolation footers, the Titan is set to be the most stable, and isolation-oriented turntable in the VPI quiver of decks."
 
I'm still using my FONS CQ-30 that I bought used from 1978. I had to replace a motor in 1982. Since then its worked fine. Heavy platter and syncro motor works very well. Pretty much the same for the AR's and Ariston's and Linn LP-12's.
 
E-Stat said:
Why then do they produce the Titan?

"Utilizing a machined acrylic/aluminum/acrylic sandwich-design chassis on top of our pneumatic air-suspension isolation footers, the Titan is set to be the most stable, and isolation-oriented turntable in the VPI quiver of decks."
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Probably because their attempts at producing a viable direct drive turntable have failed? Which is hardly surprising given that they attempted to use industrial motors together with industrial controllers that produce enough EMI to interfere with radio reception. After all, we're talking about a company that repeatedly failed to produce a well-designed speed controller for AC motors which is much less complex than a direct drive turntable.
 
FONSguy said:
I'm still using my FONS CQ-30 that I bought used from 1978. I had to replace a motor in 1982. Since then its worked fine. Heavy platter and syncro motor works very well. Pretty much the same for the AR's and Ariston's and Linn LP-12's.
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Your Fons uses a DC servo motor and the schematic is licensed from Philips (based on 22GA312).
 
stratokaster said:
Oh, I don't doubt this. Having owned all major types of turntables (idler drive, suspended belt drive, direct drive) I can attest that there is a very noticeable difference in presentation between them.


I would argue that's because most so-called audiophiles are vain, they want to own something made by a boutique manufacturer, and most boutique companies don't have financial resources or technical knowledge necessary to produce a direct drive turntable.

Notably, Harry Weisfeld of VPI fame and Marc Gomez, the lead designer of SAT, claim that direct drive is the best drive system in existence. I think they know their stuff well enough to take their claims seriously.
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I think a case can be made for VPI being a "boutique" manufacturer. And you are using the very type of manufacturer that you denigrate as justification for the superiority of a DD drive system? Then you slag the company a couple of post later in #148? Curious.
 
Mister Pig said:
I think a case can be made for VPI being a "boutique" manufacturer.
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And? Do you think the Weisfelds are stupid?

Mister Pig said:
And you are using the very type of manufacturer that you denigrate as justification for the superiority of a DD drive system? Curious.
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Huh? Kindly quote anything I've ever said to *denigrate* VPI. I merely challenged your assertion with what I find on their website today.

I bought my first of many of their products over thirty years ago.
 
Mister Pig said:
I think a case can be made for VPI being a "boutique" manufacturer. And you are using the very type of manufacturer that you denigrate as justification for the superiority of a DD drive system? Curious.
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Does stating the facts count as denigration? I mean, given proper tools, I could make a belt-drive turntable in my garage. It would even have a very good microprocessor-based, quartz-referenced speed controller. I will never be able to make a direct drive turntable simply because commonly available BLDC motors are not suitable for this purpose, and I will never be able to make a suitable motor without a full-blown production line. I think of VPI as a bunch of very skilled and talented people with a very good set of tools in a rather large garage, they can make an excellent belt-drive (or rim-drive) turntable but they are no Japanese keiretsu.
 
E-Stat said:
And? Do you think the Weisfelds are stupid?


Huh? Kindly quote anything I've ever said to *denigrate* VPI. I merely challenged your assertion with what I find on their website today.

I bought my first of many of their products over thirty years ago.
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Apparently you cannot read who I quote, if you look again it was stratokaster. Or express yourself without being an ass. You should pay better attention. There is a reason why you were on my ignore list, I guess you go back on it.
 
Aerobat said:
The useful thing about the RPM Speed and Wow app is the ability take relative measurements, not absolute. Comparing different turntables or comparing before and after maintenance or mods to one table. No one is saying it's perfectly accurate, but it's damn close.
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Exactly. That's why I did reference the measurements I got from the RPM app in my posts, although I know they're not totally precise: I got similar readings each time I tested a specific turntable, and the differences between each turntable's readings corresponded more or less to what the strobe showed.
 
stratokaster said:
Does stating the facts count as denigration? I mean, given proper tools, I could make a belt-drive turntable in my garage. It would even have a very good microprocessor-based, quartz-referenced speed controller. I will never be able to make a direct drive turntable simply because commonly available BLDC motors are not suitable for this purpose, and I will never be able to make a suitable motor without a full-blown production line. I think of VPI as a bunch of very skilled and talented people with a very good set of tools in a rather large garage, they can make an excellent belt-drive (or rim-drive) turntable but they are no Japanese keiretsu.
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Turntables are an excercise in trade offs for a design. Belt drive, direct drive, idler drive, they all have unique strengths and limitations. They also require a different allotment of resources for each area, and when a finite price ceiling is in place, investing a great deal of capital in one area means another area may not get as sophisticated components. The question becomes how much is invested to develop the DD system and speed control circuitry, and does an improvement in speed control of a few hundredth of a percent create an audible difference? Then does the issue of isolation of a large high torque motor from the chassis get addressed? How effective is that engineering solution. Of course all the other drive systems have their unique issues, and how well they are addressed determine the overall performance of that table. One drive unit is not inherently superior to another, but rather the level of engineering, quality of parts, and execution of the overall design determine its success.
 
Started my audio journey with an inexpensive Dual idler drive, jumped on the DD bandwagon erroneously thinking idler inferior. My music was lost, five Inexpensive DD decks later I purchased my first belt drive, an AR XA and my music was back.

The little table that could was my main deck for 20yrs, was put off DD for a long time. Decided to give them another try when a Kenwood KD500 came my way at the right price and the AR was finally unseated. It took a DD table of "The Rock's" caliber to unseat such a basic belt drive as the XA, it's no wonder most aren't manufacturing them.

The KD500 was followed by the outstanding KD770D, with its slotless coreless motor reknowned for its liquid smooth operation it's one outstanding table.

But both were easily outclassed by the belt drive Well Tempered Lab Turntable, take from that what you will.
 
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