Vintage Turntables: Time to Throw in the Towel?

[psemeraro]

Which pickups and phono preamps are you using with the 1200s?

For this project we're using a Pioneer DJM800 mixer (This is a mutil-thousand dollar 24/96 digital mixer with competent phono preamps) so working with how the mixer loads the cartridges, the ones that move effortlessly between analog and digital are Stanton 890AL, Stanton 500E Mk2, Ortofon Concorde with OM10 stylus and the biggest surprise, the AT VM95C which handles and sounds great at 2.5 grams, and cost $35 delivered. The Stanton 890 sounds great but almost always sounds better than digital, bigger, more dynamic, clearer, etc., so that's a no-go. The Stanton 500E allows effortless movement between analog and digital sound wise but finding original styli is much too tedious for a production environment in 2021. The Ortofon Concordes with DJ styli handle great but are brutal on records and their sounds is way off the mark, typically a dB or two brighter/harsher than the digital files The unique Pro S stylus sounds close-ish but the stereo image is collapsed and in comparison to digital sounds both harsh and missing detail/articulation . The Om 10 stylus sounds perfect but is a non-starter as far as handling. I have tons of different Shure cartridge/styli combinations domestic and DJ, and they range from ok to amazing but only the V15V (original, NOT the x version) with an oem Shure conical sounds like the digital files, is much too fragile for broadcast use, and styli are impossible to find.

Digital path is spdif from Automation Megaseg on Mac to mixer. NO dsp or processing happens at the Mac or in Megaseg, its 1 to 1 digital playout of uncompressed files to the mixer, thru the mixer, and into the broadcast encoder. Audio path is 100 % digital and only becomes analog at the listener's point of play back. In the venue, the digital output of the mixer goes AES to the venue Soundcraft console and that system is all digital as well so its a clean feed with no ground loops, cable loss, console preamps, etc. in the audio path.

 

[Aerobat]

For this project we're using a Pioneer DJM800 mixer (This is a mutil-thousand dollar 24/96 digital mixer with competent phono preamps) so working with how the mixer loads the cartridges, the ones that move effortlessly between analog and digital are Stanton 890AL, Stanton 500E Mk2, Ortofon Concorde with OM10 stylus and the biggest surprise, the AT VM95C which handles and sounds great at 2.5 grams, and cost $35 delivered. The Stanton 890 sounds great but almost always sounds better than digital, bigger, more dynamic, clearer, etc., so that's a no-go. The Stanton 500E allows effortless movement between analog and digital sound wise but finding original styli is much too tedious for a production environment in 2021. The Ortofon Concordes with DJ styli handle great but are brutal on records and their sounds is way off the mark, typically a dB or two brighter/harsher than the digital files The unique Pro S stylus sounds close-ish but the stereo image is collapsed and in comparison to digital sounds both harsh and missing detail/articulation . The Om 10 stylus sounds perfect but is a non-starter as far as handling. I have tons of different Shure cartridge/styli combinations domestic and DJ, and they range from ok to amazing but only the V15V (original, NOT the x version) with an oem Shure conical sounds like the digital files, is much too fragile for broadcast use, and styli are impossible to find.

Digital path is spdif from Automation Megaseg on Mac to mixer. NO dsp or processing happens at the Mac or in Megaseg, its 1 to 1 digital playout of uncompressed files to the mixer, thru the mixer, and into the broadcast encoder. Audio path is 100 % digital and only becomes analog at the listener's point of play back. In the venue, the digital output of the mixer goes AES to the venue Soundcraft console and that system is all digital as well so its a clean feed with no ground loops, cable loss, console preamps, etc. in the audio path.

Funny, I just ordered an AT-VM95C based on the Stereophile review. So you're saying the AT is the only usable one in the lot?

 

[cmnparlance]

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=86648

Did you read this about the JVC? If not, it may be worth your time. It’s not the SM it’s part of Vinyl engines forum.

I’ve had a Technics 212, was given away to a friend. The PS on that unit isn’t to complex, a simple recap may fix it.

View attachment 2090432

That and spraying the micro switch may help.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=42656

Post info to the pic ^^

Not my pix, found on Google HiFiEngine. You get the idea.

I think I did read that thread on the JVC several months ago, but now that I am planning to open the thing up myself I will take a look again. Another replier here (looks like it may now be deleted?) mentioned a switch, part number QSM1V01-002, which I think may be the same thing that thread is about.

I may try and see what’s up with that switch and possibly order a new one. Don’t really know what I’m doing though!

 

[psemeraro]

Funny, I just ordered an AT-VM95C based on the Stereophile review. So you're saying the AT is the only usable one in the lot?

Reading your post I just looked up that mini-review. Glad to have them along! I've always mostly hated the Audio Technica sound but there is simply no denying the overall competence of the VM95C. For this application, it seems to be the best choice as it is cheap, readily available, handles great, kind to records with moderate tracking force and no cue-burn, and loaded by the Pioneer 800 preamp, its sound, tone and timbre allow effortless movement between vinyl and digital. Not every preamp gave that result but the ones we're using did, so to me its a solved problem. I am curious to try the Shibata, maybe some point in the future.

My first choice would have been the Stanton 500 as its broadcast pedigree is well known and I have plenty of "seat" time with them and can trust them but with oem styli long discontinued, it's a moot point in 2021.

 

[jobrewer1983]

I think I did read that thread on the JVC several months ago, but now that I am planning to open the thing up myself I will take a look again. Another replier here (looks like it may now be deleted?) mentioned a switch, part number QSM1V01-002, which I think may be the same thing that thread is about.

I may try and see what’s up with that switch and possibly order a new one. Don’t really know what I’m doing though!

It’s not complex, and your in the correct place. Ya gotta learn at some point tables are a good starting point for restoring vintage gear.

Not that I want to complicate things at all, but if you like the vintage tables, and don’t like to deal with working on one, I’d say look into a Pioneer PL-41.



It’s a simple belt driven table with a total of 2 caps, and a on off switch and a motor. I picked up this one for $80 and restored it. Had a fellow AKer build me a plinth. Total investment was under $200 They can be found on eBay for a few bills but I’d say look on your local CL and offer up. The build quality is crazy, better built than my Linn LP12s. The platter on the 41 is massive and just a substantial chunk of aluminum. Thy are hard to screw up, the bearing on them look like it would support a truck tire. A new $10 thrust plate and some lube and you will have a professional grade broadcast deck.

I have many tables, have had new and old, from high end Linn decks down to the Pioneer PL12D and 10D.

That said the PL-41 is one of the best sounding and best built deck I’ve ever had for the low buck they can be had for. Don’t let the arm fool you as it lacks an anti-skate adjustment. It’s not needed as it’s that good of an arm. Sounds just as good as my Linn arms and SME arms.

You should get the decks you have going but you asked about throwing in the towel on vintage, I say no, just buy a table that doesn’t have all the auto rerun functions, the more that is added to a table the more chances of something that can fail. This is my opinion, nothing more. Some folks will disagree. But ask anyone who had a PL-41 if they like it.







Kinda hard to beat the 41, I’d put it up against any linn any day. It’s the best belt driven deck I have, if I had to get rid of all my gear and keep one table it would be the 41. It’s just a work horse that has a fantastic sound stage.

Good luck on the 3 you have!

 

[BillWojo]

Gotta agree with jobrewer1983 on the Pioneer PL-41 TT. It was Pioneers top of the line TT back when it came out. It was the first TT that I picked up after a long absence from audio and I found mine for 15 bucks at a thrift store. I took it apart to clean and service it and was amazed at the build quality.
I'm more of a fan of vintage Victor (JVC) DD tables these days but my Pioneer isn't going anywhere. They will never build tables like this one again.

BillWojo

 

[onwardjames]

Anything 40 years old needs to be serviced. Vintage entry level tables are just that, entry level. Try a higher end vintage table that has been serviced. My JVC QL-A7 quartz locked DD motor is very stable as is. My other tt uses the same TT 71 motor drive but that has been serviced. Should be stable for another 40 years.

BillWojo

Well, this pretty much covers it. My own JVC QL-A7 is rock solid, but it had been restored.

 

[gary7]

View attachment 2090433

Love me some Kenwood DD tables

Have a KD-500 with Grace 707 arm.

 

[gary7]

Another basket case I picked up today from the RS. Panta RPH 340. Apparently there was a straight & S-arm version of the same model. Arm and shell one piece. Removes just forward of the arm base, similar to Thorens. Got it semi working. Looks that the arm took a hit, Arm side bearing screws were not straight, Motor has Quartz lock, keeps good speed. Wish me luck.

View attachment 2089401 View attachment 2089402

Update. A bust. While the table itself is ok, did not notice that the arm had taken a hit and messed up the pivot screws & bearings. Arm won't track. sad.

 

[jobrewer1983]

Have a KD-500 with Grace 707 arm.

I love the table but I’ve got it posted to Bt right now, I have to many tables and they are hard to store. Can’t really stack tables lol





That’s the current set up... well some of it haha

 

[gary7]

Gotta agree with jobrewer1983 on the Pioneer PL-41 TT. It was Pioneers top of the line TT back when it came out. It was the first TT that I picked up after a long absence from audio and I found mine for 15 bucks at a thrift store. I took it apart to clean and service it and was amazed at the build quality.
I'm more of a fan of vintage Victor (JVC) DD tables these days but my Pioneer isn't going anywhere. They will never build tables like this one again.

BillWojo

I have a Pioneer PL-50, similar to the PL-41. have it running, only the so called auto return does not work,

 

[gary7]

It’s not complex, and your in the correct place. Ya gotta learn at some point tables are a good starting point for restoring vintage gear.

Not that I want to complicate things at all, but if you like the vintage tables, and don’t like to deal with working on one, I’d say look into a Pioneer PL-41.

View attachment 2090989

It’s a simple belt driven table with a total of 2 caps, and a on off switch and a motor. I picked up this one for $80 and restored it. Had a fellow AKer build me a plinth. Total investment was under $200 They can be found on eBay for a few bills but I’d say look on your local CL and offer up. The build quality is crazy, better built than my Linn LP12s. The platter on the 41 is massive and just a substantial chunk of aluminum. Thy are hard to screw up, the bearing on them look like it would support a truck tire. A new $10 thrust plate and some lube and you will have a professional grade broadcast deck.

I have many tables, have had new and old, from high end Linn decks down to the Pioneer PL12D and 10D.

That said the PL-41 is one of the best sounding and best built deck I’ve ever had for the low buck they can be had for. Don’t let the arm fool you as it lacks an anti-skate adjustment. It’s not needed as it’s that good of an arm. Sounds just as good as my Linn arms and SME arms.

You should get the decks you have going but you asked about throwing in the towel on vintage, I say no, just buy a table that doesn’t have all the auto rerun functions, the more that is added to a table the more chances of something that can fail. This is my opinion, nothing more. Some folks will disagree. But ask anyone who had a PL-41 if they like it.

View attachment 2091013

View attachment 2091014

View attachment 2091015

Kinda hard to beat the 41, I’d put it up against any linn any day. It’s the best belt driven deck I have, if I had to get rid of all my gear and keep one table it would be the 41. It’s just a work horse that has a fantastic sound stage.

Good luck on the 3 you have!

Nothing like a thick plinth. Thing of beauty. Wonder would he make one for my PL-50?

 

[jobrewer1983]

Nothing like a thick plinth. Thing of beauty. Wonder would he make one for my PL-50?

It was @KrautNotRice you would have to reach out to him he did a fantastic job!

 

[Champco]

If you look at the rest of this thread I go into the issues in more detail, but the tables are:

Dual 601
JVC JL-A40
Technics SL-D212

i use my dual 601 ALMOST every day, sometimes for hours. The speed strobe will go back and forth consistently but the speed does not drift. It was this way with the first motor and still the same with the new motor. I think it's is somehow the strobe. Not to worry.

 

[Champco]

It would be interesting to know what motor OP:s 601 is equipped with.

I think it is exactly as you say. 840 with runaway drift. Just a bit at first then always. If thats the case it's pretty obvious. Had the 860 put in and it's fine now.

 

[Champco]

I still thing the 601 is the coolest/best TT in the lineup. But that´s just my humble opinion

I love mine but more importantly is the Shure V15 iii glued into the head shell from the factory. Great setup making the TT a premium player

 

[StimpyMK2]

I agree that simpler is better. I’m running a Linear Design GST1, made by CEC Japan, and it is so straight forward. Yes a bit of maintenance required now and then and used the nail varnish method to deal with a problem of a smidge slow on the RPM and now it’s just lovely. I’ve had a few other vintage decks, Denon, Silver (excellent machine) and a slightly modern Stanton, which I hated after a week, and this deck is by far the best looking and consistent deck I’ve had for a while.

 

[Thunderbox]

Another basket case I picked up today from the RS. Panta RPH 340. Apparently there was a straight & S-arm version of the same model. Arm and shell one piece. Removes just forward of the arm base, similar to Thorens. Got it semi working. Looks that the arm took a hit, Arm side bearing screws were not straight, Motor has Quartz lock, keeps good speed. Wish me luck.

View attachment 2089401 View attachment 2089402

I have a Panta RPH 340 also. Its the second one I have had. It's a wonderful playing TT. The only thing I have done to mine is change the belts that drive the arm.

 

[Final_Baton]

I love the table but I’ve got it posted to Bt right now, I have to many tables and they are hard to store. Can’t really stack tables lol

View attachment 2091431 View attachment 2091432

View attachment 2091433

That’s the current set up... well some of it haha

Wait : I thought you didn't like the small JBLs.

I seen you give your impressions and you were like : ''Yeahhhhhh, they're okay I guess... will keep trying on better speakers though''

Then I see that they're the only ones you currently have hooked up

Usage doesn't lie. it trumps words

 

[jobrewer1983]

Wait : I thought you didn't like the small JBLs.

I seen you give your impressions and you were like : ''Yeahhhhhh, they're okay I guess... will keep trying on better speakers though''

Then I see that they're the only ones you currently have hooked up

Usage doesn't lie. it trumps words

I don’t know what on earth your talking about! Please show me where I said that.

You must have me confused with someone else.

I am a JBL Nut and have been preaching JBL for years. I have many sets of the smaller JBLs. I’ve done many reviews on the smaller JBL.



L16, 4301b, and L-19A’s ^^ all rebuilt with Jantzen Z-Caps and Jantzen exact value shunts, and mills resistors. New binding posts too.



I also just bought a 2nd set of 4401s and the set of 4301B you see in that picture is also my 2nd set.

I also have a set of L-166As in the closets waiting for a crossover rebuild, I have all the parts just need to get to soldering them.

I’ve had/have the L-100, L-150, L-166s (x2), L-110A, L-26s, D-208, D-280 FR drivers, many sets of the LE8TH in custom cabs with the 044 tweeters, 4401, 4301b, L-16, L-19a.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you go to the music thread and do some reading on my posts in the “what are you listening to now, and more thread”, over the past X amount of years you will see that I’m a JBL Nut, you can also find me on the JBL Lansing heritage forum.

I don’t know where you got your info from, but that’s simply not a true statement.

Now what I have said is I’m not a fan of the L-100s. They sound fine but they are a bit to common for me.

As for the smaller JBL, I collect and restore them. I have a love for the 116/LE25 combo.







I have re-foamed over 10 sets of the 116A and H drivers. Not an easy driver to do as the coil gap is super small.

I think your just pulling my leg man, if so ya got me and ya got me good haha

I love JBL and have recommend the smaller ones for small spaces for years.