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walsh tweeter design/rebuild

did anyone see that listing on ebay for the pair of WTLCs that ended today?
i was watching it but didnt have it in my watch list cause it was full, so now i go to search for them and it seems like they have vanished from the entirety of the internet and the listing never existed, wtf?
 
coastsider PMed me the link to the auction, so currently wtlc's are selling for about 540 shipped, and the pair was very nice with rotten foams on the walshes of course, but they claimed they worked.

the most i have seent them go for is usually about 850 shipped for comparison.

just saying.
 
I just had a very long phone conversation with Dale Harder, and it's beginning to look as if I have been laboring under an illusion all of these years. All of this time, I have been assuming that we were working on prototypes for Infinity, and it now appears that the fellow I was working with was attempting to "knock off" the tweeter for his own enterprise, which was an add-on tweeter that would augment existing speakers.
I have tried talking to Bill about this, and he will not comment on the matter at all, claiming he is not interested in Walsh tweeters anymore.
If I have mislead any of you, I apologize. However, my experience with building the devices is a fact.
I am currently working on a paper that discusses the process I used to construct the tweeter and will make it available in the near future. It does not detail the Infinity approach, and since the materials that we used are no longer available, it serves only as a starting point for those of you who may wish to try to "roll your own", perhaps as a route to get your Infinity's back on line.
Again, apologies for what some of you may regard as misinformation.
 
coastsider PMed me the link to the auction, so currently wtlc's are selling for about 540 shipped, and the pair was very nice with rotten foams on the walshes of course, but they claimed they worked.

Have you seen the restored (in the process of) pair of WTLC's MagicMarksy has listed?
 
Have you seen the restored (in the process of) pair of WTLC's MagicMarksy has listed?

He previously had those listed for less until the other pair sold and then he raised his price. If you do an AK search on his username you will discover some interesting posts.
 
He previously had those listed for less until the other pair sold and then he raised his price. If you do an AK search on his username you will discover some interesting posts.

I though I had noticed a while back that they disappeared and then reappeared a little higher.

I'm familiar with the doctor's history. He's the one who bought those dead Walshes "for repair" a while back (I remember thinking at the time "who would want to pay for dead Walshes?") and now he lists a Walsh repair service.

A key point of captaingamez' post was that the seller "claimed" they worked. That's why I liked the pair of Walshes listed a while back - the seller included pics showing the resistance meter readings. I think someone currently has 2 listings for nice looking pairs of Walshes. But not cheap. As with everything else, when we talk about something here it seems to drive up the going prices on that site.
 
yea i noticed he raised his price

he is also selling two pairs of walshes at 278 a pair. and while im not saying their not worth it, i would not pay that much for them.

what i dont really get is the repair cost of 140 each? it really isnt that much work honestly, lest hes building new cones.

honestly his price of 450 isnt bad for those wtlcs if you pick them up, not bad at all, and i like those custom stands he has for them, i havent seen something like that yet, but i considered making some like them to raise them a few more inches, kinda wonder how much the original stand plays into the sound though, one thing i will say is that with the stands his have, you can not change the lower bass dispersion direction which you can change on the original stands. If you ever noticed, theres two peg holes and you can move the base sideways. so the lower woofer disperses front to back or side to side, depending on your preference.
 
The repaired ones are actually a better deal than the service. Cores included, no cost (or danger) to ship in.

I repaired 2 more on Saturday - and they started out beat up in shipping. IF they are repairable, it's not too bad. Couple hours each total, including foam and quick test. And that's with my bad eyesight. And being cautious.
 
Concerning the 'mystique' of the Walsh tweeter- I suggest all of you read the Walsh patent. It can be found by searching U.S. Patent #3,424,873 on Google.
Various individuals are claiming that there are "secret" and "magic" techniques and materials that only they have knowledge of, but when you read the patent, you'll realize a lot of that is hype. Certainly, there are some "trade secrets", and no doubt some of the players have actually done some real research and development, but reading the patent will give you some real insight about the device and the principles.
The device owes it's sound more to the transmission line principle (which needs to be terminated) and it's "omni-directional' radiation pattern than the materials utilized.
Another tidbit of history which is as yet unverified- the license agreement between Ohm and Infinity had a dimensional limitation, i.e. the "cone" of the tweeter could not exceed 5" x 3"- thus the role of super tweeter in the Infinity designs. For what appears to be a very short time, Ohm attempted to market a two-way system employing a Walsh style driver for the mids and highs, and a direct radiator woofer. I haven't been able to find much of anything else about this speaker.
In the patent, a ratio between the velocity of sound through the diaphram and the velocity of sound in air was important. The Infinity device does not seem to comply with this, which further suggests there may not be any "magic" at all. If the ratio of velocities is not optimum, the vertical dispersion angle is effected, not the sound quality
If you do the math for aluminum, which is what we presume the cone to be made of, the angle of the cone should be about 80-86 degrees. Taking into account the plastic backing on the foil, the angle would be far less, so the question is did Infinity do the math for plastic, or aluminum, or did they even take the math into account? I would be interested in hearing impressions from any of you as to what you think your cones are made of, and whether or not the material appears to be laminated.
I've also learned that there was acceptable tolerance of plus or minus 10% for the cone length and possibly the angle, which may explain why some of the center supports may appear to be of different lengths.
Additionally, I have been told that the foam termination was of a latex composition, but I doubt that can be verified considering the condition of the foam in the photos I've seen here.
One thing is certain about the foam- it has a dual purpose. Not only does it terminate the rear-reflecting wave in the cone, it also supports the end of the cone to prevent the mass of the cone from pressing downward on the voice coil and displacing the coil in the magnetic gap. Those of you who are repairing your drivers should keep this in mind, as any displacement of the coil in the gap can seriously effect the efficiency and response of the driver as well as the match to the crossover network.
 
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well, i finally own some walsh-equipped infinitys. i'm working on a monitor IIa project and just went through the walshes. this walsh rebuild thread proved quite helpful. since we never really got too deeply into the subject of the foam cap, i thought i'd resurrect this languishing thread and add this info, just to have all the walsh-rebuild stuff in one place for future reference.

i know a lot of people just use whatever foam is handy, and i see it frequently installed flat, but i wanted to try to duplicate what the factory was doing. my dialogs with walsh expert dale harder of HHR provided much good info that helped point me in the right direction, and saved me a lot of head scratching. of course, lincoln walsh's patent was consulted at length, and the writings of horn/waveguide guru dr. earl geddes were also instrumental in helping me wrap my brain around the wave propagation issues that need addressing as well as the characteristics of various foams. so, here is some droning about foaming...


the walsh tweeter was capped with a piece of foam sheet 1/2" thick, installed in a domed configuration. the original foam is kind of a mystery, since none of it has survived the years intact. crumbling remnants and gooey residue give only hints of what the foam was like in its pristine state, but in general we know that it was a gray, flexible foam, with many small cells of uniform size. not much to go on, and a description that belies the complexity of the foams task. to clarify the foam's task, i'll paraphrase dale again here:

"the open cell foam acted to damp the cone from ringing, provide structural support to the center tube and to help with the air/metal interface where the sound hopefully was absorbed at the annulus of the cone. if sound is not absorbed here, when it reaches the end of the cone and perceives the air/metal interface, physics demands that the propagating wave be reflected back down the cone 180 degrees out of phase. the foam plug at the top of the cone was to provide the damping and absorption of the wave at this interface and prevent reflection of the wave back into the cone. It was also a strengthening agent, fundamental in locating the cone in relation to the center support.

the density of the foam does play a role and this is why in our (HHR's) work with all walsh speakers we tell people, you can't just grab any old thing and throw it in. the foam that was used in the tweeters was an open cell foam, charcoal grey in color and the density of the foam was uniform. off the shelf foams do not work as well. some off the shelf foam has a very randomized cell structure with lots of air voids and this foam does not work as well. this leads to break-up and wave cancellation/reinforcement giving the speaker a very muffled or hollow sound. even muddy, or veiled".



so, for the tweeter application, a proper replacement foam needs to be an open cell type, so it is permeable to air (and sound). there are a lot of open cell foams out there. there are myriad materials – polyurethane, polyethylene, polyvinyl chloride, latex, melamine, polyimide, PVA, EVA, etc. based on intended use, and due to longevity concerns, polyurethane is the preferred material.

besides material, there are many physical attributes to consider. there are two types of open cell structure related to permeability – one being "reticulated" (cell walls completely gone leaving only an interconnecting skeletal structure), and the other being "non-reticulated" (cell walls partially intact). for the walsh tweeter application, the reticulated type has several distinct advantages.

a reticulated open cell foam is produced through an interesting process called zapping. this process involves placing a bun of foam in a large vacuum pressure vessel known as (drum roll, please)… a zapper. the vessel is evacuated and filled with an explosive gas mixture. the gas is ignited and a controlled flame front passes through the foam. this melts the cell window membranes, but leaves the skeletal structure intact. the benefit of the zapping process is it yields a smooth, polished skeletal structure, higher strength, and maximum permeability. polyurethane foam best lends itself to the zapping procedure.

the ideal foam for the walsh tweeter cap needs to be flexible enough to conform to a dome shape, yet resilient enough to hold the cone centered in-place without deforming it. it needs an open enough structure to be acoustically transparent, but dense enough to damp the sound waves at the top of the cone. a reticulated foam best meets these criteria. besides its role in supporting the fragile cone, the foam also needs to absorb any spurious wave reflections emanating from the cone edge that would otherwise cause unwanted sound quality issues. a reticulated foam is necessary to achieve a proper balance of absorption without too much attenuation when damping the reflected waves that geddes termed higher order modes (HOMs), and walsh called undesired delayed transient radiation.

the number of cells (pores) per inch, and the uniformity of cell size, are also key considerations.

i auditioned a lot of different foams for this project, but i didn't even come close to examining the literally thousands of variations out there that specialty foam manufacturers offer. in addition, i tested only gray colored foams, as i wanted an original look. i live in a rural area that is lacking in exotic foam dealers, and so was limited to purchasing online, and only from sources that would sell a reasonably small quantity (most specialty foam manufacturers seem to only want to sell you cargo container sized orders, and specialty foam is fairly expensive considering by volume it is mostly air).

i confess, of the varieties i auditioned, none had all the exact attributes preferred, so i ended up compromising. in the end, i went with a 1/2" thick, reticulated polyurethane ester-type foam for speaker and filter applications, with 30 ppi (pores per inch). this ppi was bit of a trade-off. from a purely visual standpoint, i would have preferred a ppi of 45-65, but it was a little on the stiff side. the 30 ppi foam best met the physical criteria of density, elasticity, deflection, compression, permeability, etc. (and 30 ppi is what geddes swears is best suited to the purpose). it also has a rated life-span of 10+ years, an important consideration since we know our environmental ozone issues accelerate the demise of poly-based foams and plastics. i attached the spec's for the foam i used below. this foam was sourced from:

http://www.foambymail.com/SFF-/speaker-filter-foam-30-ppi.html

(no affiliation)

once in hand, fabrication of the foam caps for the tweeters was pretty straight-forward. i cut the disc with an exacto knife (using a conveniently-sized solvent can i had handy for a template), and punched the center hole with a gasket punch. through a process of trial and error, i determined the optimum diameter for the (30 ppi) foam disc was 3 7/16" for my gold coned walshes. this is slightly larger than the diameter of the top of the cone. a disc of this diameter with a square cut edge, will match the angle of the cone when installed in its "domed" position. this will give maximum edge contact, and will also provide the proper resistance to center, as well as damp, the cone. in this slightly-compressed installed state, no glue was necessary. a friction fit holds it securely in place. just as the outer diameter is slightly larger than the cone, the center hole is a slightly smaller diameter than the support tube. i found a 3/8" hole was optimum. i posted pics of the flat disc sitting on top of the cone, as well as it in it's installed (domed) state.


hope this typically long-winded esoteric discourse helps others traveling down this road.



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Loquatious, This nugget of information is far from long-winded. It is very educational and helpful. For those of us dealing with the "Foam" issue on Infinity Walsh Tweeters, it's golden! Many Thanks
BTW, do you happen to have a correct or updated crossover schematic for your Monitor IIa speakers? I have a pair in my storage shed that are up next on the plate for restoration
 
Thank you village elder. Do you have any pics to share on your Monitor IIa's? YOUR walshes are beauties, look new. I am a huge fan of the Infinity classics. I have had a pair of Infinity 2000 II speakers since 1977, when I purchased them new and they have never been a disappointment. I have tried other brands/ mfg's, but to my ears, they don't measure up. Looking forward to enjoying the monitor II's I have when they are completed. Any recommendations for crossover caps?
 
here is side by side pic. column II on the left, and monitor IIa on the right.

personally, i use dayton 1% tolerance audio grade caps. cost effective, and (they claim) tightest tolerances in the industry. original caps were 20% tolerance (+/– 10%). even if your old caps are good, thats a lot of slop. i get my daytons from parts express.


you've been sitting on your column IIs for a while now, and are the monitor IIa's the ones fedex thrashed back in...(what was it, ''07?) good to hear they are garnering interest again. prices on original drivers are going up.




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Loquatious- Yeah, those were mine that FedEx trashed back in '07. I never saw any cash out of that, because the guy I bought them from insured them and he was the one to get any monetary compensation. He did send me another pair, but they are Monitor II's not IIa's to my disappointment. I really like the upgrade to a 4-way system over the 3-way, so that is why they are still stored away. On a positive note, I did get to keep the one good IIa and all the components out of the damaged one, but one good one does not make a pair until I can find one more IIa cabinet.
My 2000 II's are awesome and I guess that keeps me from crying over the IIa's.....too much.
I read all the threads your link sent me to between Coastrider and you and discovered some fantastic info, but I have to tell you that my head was spinning at 45 rpm's....or was it 78 rpms when I was finished, but well worth it.
I am now wondering if the wiring is correct in my 2000 II's. Can of worms indeed! I remember the midrange and walsh (super tweeter) being out of phase with the woofer and tweeter, so I don't know if that HK/ Infinity schematic is correct.
Your IIa's are gorgeous. Maybe someday I will have a pair of my own.
BTW: the woofers out of my disabled IIa's ohm out at 3.8 ohms. I was wondering the same thing as you about the 4 ohm vs 8 ohm dilemma and it appears the 4 ohm is correct
 
spotted these new old stock walsh tweeters on ebay today. don't see these every day. figured i'd post the pics here for historical documentation.






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Gentlemen,

Please forgive the intrusion, but this is a very intersting thread and I do try to keep up on the Walsh style or bending wave drivers.

Hello Jay, nice to see you here.

It appears that all of you have considerable interest in the old infinity tweeters and the old Ohm Walsh designs.

We here at HHR Exotic Speakers have taken the guess work out of all of this technology and are doing everything possible to bring the Walsh "style" technology back to life. Our new designs are light years beyond the originals offerings.

One of the recent products I have released new for this year is the Walsh style TLS-4 Tweeter/Midrange unit for "DIY" speaker work. This driver is currently on ebay and sell in matched pairs.

These little wonders are only 6" in diameter and 6.5" tall. they require no box or cabinet of any kind, but rigid mounting is best. The drivers have an effective range from 200 Hz to 22 KHz+, with a 90 db efficeincy.

I admit, they are a little pricey, but they did take 4 years to develope and are patent pending. They are available from us directly a little less expensive than the ebay offerings.

You may also find our other Line of TLS products interesting. Full size drivers based on the Walsh principal, including the TLS-1, 2, 4 and 5. The 5 is a hybrid tower made with two, true walsh style drivers.

Our website, www.hhrexoticspeakers.com is currently being upgraded by our IT team and will show the new TLS-4 and 5 models soon. You may contact me directly by email at dale@hhr-exoticspeakers.com if you wish.

I do hope this information is of some value to you.

Good listening to all,
Dale Harder

What is the recommended crossover point and order for the TLS 4? Your website mentions 200 hz as the low frequency roll off of this driver. But for some reason I think I recall a comment made by you (EBAY listing for a pair of these?) in which a crossover of 1khz was recommended. I'm considering a LF system using a single 8" driver in a traditional transmission line cabinet using a Seas or Peerless HDS unit. -T
 
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