Watching the meters dance - the formidable Sansui B-2301L (for Luxury) power amp

[JimEGR]

If you are completely restoring the 2301 chances are you will use the best components available and at that point the difference would be null anyways. Except hidden cosmetic differences that no one can see.

There are claimed shielding benefits from all of that copper plating and the L also has 2kg heavier PT - 1400 watts vs 1300 watts on the non L - so it's not a just cosmetic outside of component package differences. A refreshed B-2301 I can imagine will likely have some sonic benefits over on a non-L in original condition, depending on what kind of life the L has had. I know I can't imagine my all original L sounding better, but I would not know until I refreshed it. I am having the same dilemma with my C-2301. It too is mint and looks like it had little to no use all of these years. And it sounds perfect to my ears. I do think about the corrosive glue in there doing it's thing and wonder what a fresh component package would do for both of them too though. For now I am using them as they are - and partly because I can't imagine being without them right now. I am really enjoying this package. A lot. They almost seem to sound better the more I listen to them.

 

[DB-7]

My bad.
If 100watt extra in the power transformer causes that much more in noise and such, I'm glad I only got the low level non-L version. Because I don't hear any of that....lmao

I hope I have some aluminum foil at home or I'll have to throw the darn thing in the dumpster!

 

[JimEGR]

My bad.
If 100watt extra in the power transformer causes that much more in noise and such, I'm glad I only got the low level non-L version. Because I don't hear any of that....lmao

I hope I have some aluminum foil at home or I'll have to throw the darn thing in the dumpster!

I thought you might be going for the aluminum hat on this one! Haha.

 

[bolero]

Apologies for quoting Hirano again: he was talking about copper plating on the chassis, saying it helps the sound because it's a better conductor than whatever the chassis is normally made out of. So some ground currents flow faster across the surface & apparently it helps the high end.

This is way beyond any of my theory & reaches into voodoo IMO but Hirano knew what he was doing, so who knows?

In concept it sort of works the way a small bypass cap helps across a larger capacitor, improving the high freq response by breaking up the ESR.

I'll probably get crucified for even suggesting that, but it's just an analogy.

 

[DB-7]

Apologies for quoting Hirano again: he was talking about copper plating on the chassis, saying it helps the sound because it's a better conductor than whatever the chassis is normally made out of. So some ground currents flow faster across the surface & apparently it helps the high end.

This is way beyond any of my theory & reaches into voodoo IMO but Hirano knew what he was doing, so who knows?

In concept it sort of works the way a small bypass cap helps across a larger capacitor, improving the high freq response by breaking up the ESR.

I'll probably get crucified for even suggesting that, but it's just an analogy.

Might be true but you can see from the pics of my B-2301, it has copper plating where it matters.
The rest on the B-2301L is eye candy that is never seen. Imo

 

[bolero]

That whole amp is eye candy!

 

[JimEGR]

Might be true but you can see from the pics of my B-2301, it has copper plating where it matters.
The rest on the B-2301L is eye candy that is never seen. Imo

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I don't think there is any doubt about the quality of the B-2301! The L version, like the Limited integrated's, just goes that extra mile. Can that mile be heard? Hard to say. Are they both at the very top of Sansui fidelity? Absolutely.

Edit: Sansui copper plated the covers on the driver boards on the L - that seems like a smart place to improve the shielding.

 

[Sansuiman]

This went unaddressed in my previous post about it, but my B-2301 (not an L) has the additional copper plated parts, in place of the black painted pieces. In essence, it appears mine is an L variant in all but the upgraded power transformer. And again, the unit I have is a later build (April 1986) and I surmise that the additional copper plated parts were a running change that was quietly slipped into regular production prior to the official release of the 2301L. I think it worth documenting, as others may run across later build B-2301 units that are something of a hybrid of the two models.

 

[DB-7]

Sansui copper plated the covers on the driver boards on the L - that seems like a smart place to improve the shielding.

The a907 Alpha has no covers over the driver boards at all. Is it low end?

Eye candy-snake oil.... lol

 

[DB-7]

This went unaddressed in my previous post about it, but my B-2301 (not an L) has the additional copper plated parts, in place of the black painted pieces. In essence, it appears mine is an L variant in all but the upgraded power transformer. And again, the unit I have is a later build (April 1986) and I surmise that the additional copper plated parts were a running change that was quietly slipped into regular production prior to the official release of the 2301L. I think it worth documenting, as others may run across later build B-2301 units that are something of a hybrid of the two models.

Most likely because not enough sales of the more expensive L variant. Better to use up parts before a model change.

 

[bolero]

hey shhh. Keep the price of the B2301 down at least until I get one

 

[JimEGR]

The a907 Alpha has no covers over the driver boards at all. Is it low end?

Eye candy-snake oil.... lol

Who knows. You’d have to sit in on a meeting with the engineers and the sales department. I think we all want the best so if it comes down to one or the other the answer is YES. Considering how hot the economy in Japan was at that time, that surplus cash was probably driving a lot of these fringe and esoteric design ideas. They sure are fun and they sure are gorgeous. We have the good fortune of being able pick up this over the top premium gear at relatively affordable prices compared to the broader audiophile market right now. I’ll take 80’s/90’s Japanese audio excess any day.

 

[DB-7]

hey shhh. Keep the price of the B2301 down at least until I get one

You do want one. I've been using mine almost exclusively since getting it back from the Tech.
Absolutely amazing combination that I cant get enough of.

 

[Sansuiman]

Most likely because not enough sales of the more expensive L variant. Better to use up parts before a model change.

Hell if I know. I have been of the understanding that the 2301L replaced the 2301 in the lineup, meaning they weren't both in production concurrently. If that's the case, then obviously the additional copper parts were already fabricated and in use for the original 2301 during it's latter production, as a running change carried forward to the 2301L.

The 2301L just added the upgraded transformer, and formalized the added copper shielding as a "new" upgrade (even though it was already in use) for marketing purposes. While the 2301 had a 3+ year production period (1983-86), by all appearances, the L variant was a pretty short run, ultimately replaced in turn by the 2302. These were all low volume models, given their extreme price tags I'd be surprised if more than 2500 B-2301 (and L variants) were ever built. Fewer still of the 2302, and it's production was further split between black and champagne finish versions.

 

[JimEGR]

A little more Nerding out on these fine amplifiers, and some insight on the L model -

Based on what's in the database this is how the dates of manufacture break out for the B-2301 / B-2301L / B-2302

B-2301 ¥470,000
(42 units) October 1982 - September 1989

B-2301L ¥533,000 (¥501,000 (-inflation))
(68 units) April 1985-July 1987

B-2302 ¥740,000 (¥614,000 (-inflation))
(35 units) January 1990 - April 1991

Interesting it looks like the B-2301L was the best selling unit of the three, at least by the numbers captured by AK. This doesn't seem to reflect what we see for sale in Japan though - the B-2301L is less common in the auctions. Or maybe more folks are holding onto their L models in Japan? And maybe more AK'ers are collecting L models and submitting their serial numbers to the database, and that explains the increase. Not sure.

Claimed improvements in sound for the L -
"As a result of these improvements, the B-2301L had greater speaker damping power, and in fact, the sound was tighter from the mid-low to low frequencies."

And there is no disputing that all three of these power amps are absolute sonic masterpieces. I have a US Hi-Fi review magazine article, somewhere here, where the reviewer basically says the B-2301 is the perfect power amplifier. High praise at that time. Anytime.

Some details on the B-2301L from this link here

 

[Sansuiman]

I question that date range of manufacture for the B-2301. It makes little sense to me that the L variant was offered briefly (just a couple of years) in the midst of making the "non-L" 2301. I don't believe I've ever seen a B-2301 (L or not) with the "new" logo, either, while the C-2301 did receive a revised logo during it's run. That said, I did just do an image search, and there are a few scant examples of B-2301's with the new logo, FWIW.

I do agree the 2301 had to have sold more units than the L, just by virtue of having an (apparently) longer production period. I also consider it quite likely the 2301 sold far better earlier on, as Sansui still had fairly respectable international sales up until about 1986-87, after which their product availability began to fall off outside Japan, and was nearly non-existent but for the JDM from 1990 onward.

 

[JimEGR]

That said, I did just do an image search, and there are a few scant examples of B-2301's with the new logo, FWIW.

I do agree the 2301 had to have sold more units than the L, just by virtue of having an (apparently) longer production period. I also consider it quite likely the 2301 sold far better earlier on, as Sansui still had fairly respectable international sales up until about 1986-87, after which their product availability began to fall off outside Japan, and was nearly non-existent but for the JDM from 1990 onward.

You said it right there - a few B-2301 out there with the new logo. The database shows four that would have had the newer logo. None shown for 1987, interestingly.

 

[Sansuiman]

I still can't get my head around why the 2301 was (apparently) made for such a long run, instead of just superceding it with the L version. Seems like a step backward to offer an upgraded model, then withdraw it again while still making the original version for a couple more years.

Then again, I've found some other weirdness with Sansui making things long after I thought they'd been discontinued. The SE-88 is a good example of this, they were sold internationally from about 1985-87 or so, and never received the updated logo in that time. But then Sansui did a couple of later runs (into 1989 and 90, I believe) strictly for the JDM. Some had the new logo (which requires a whole new screen print for the plexi front panel) and yet the very last run reverted to the old logo (WTH?).

I don't know if they were just "burning off" old parts that were still sitting in inventory, or what, but it is all very odd. I have one here that is a 1990. JDM unit, and clearly has newer build circuit boards, because several of the IC's used were made by Sanyo, and have the later Sanyo logo them them, versus all others I've seen that had the old 70's and 80's logo on these chips.

 

[JimEGR]

I still can't get my head around why the 2301 was (apparently) made for such a long run, instead of just superceding it with the L version. Seems like a step backward to offer an upgraded model, then withdraw it again while still making the original version for a couple more years.

Then again, I've found some other weirdness with Sansui making things long after I thought they'd been discontinued. The SE-88 is a good example of this, they were sold internationally from about 1985-87 or so, and never received the updated logo in that time. But then Sansui did a couple of later runs (into 1989 and 90, I believe) strictly for the JDM. Some had the new logo (which requires a whole new screen print for the plexi front panel) and yet the very last run reverted to the old logo (WTH?).

I don't know if they were just "burning off" old parts that were still sitting in inventory, or what, but it is all very odd. I have one here that is a 1990. JDM unit, and clearly has newer build circuit boards, because several of the IC's used were made by Sanyo, and have the later Sanyo logo them them, versus all others I've seen that had the old 70's and 80's logo on these chips.

I think the short L run makes sense considering it was a “Limited”. And it was during the tail end of the B-2301, with some of the L improvements like the bigger PT carrying over to the B-2302.

What I find most interesting is how many more L are in the database than the standard 2301. Almost 2x.

 

[bolero]

oh, L stands for "Limited" I missed that

So it has roots & similarities to the first Limited model they made: the AU-D907 Limited

with more reference to the copper ground bit I mentioned earlier, this time from official marketing material:

"The rear panel and chassis are plated with pure copper, the power supply chassis is made of brass plate, and the mounting screws are also treated with bronze to reduce the earth high-frequency impedance."

from

Specifications of SANSUI AU-D907Limited SANSUI