They were both involved. But it was Deming who went over to Japan and instilled the QC ethic over there.
What caused the decay of the U.S. auto manufactureres
- Thread starter Telecolor 3007
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SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
GM has a recall on 600,000 trucks/SUV with potential junk engines (they are on a no-sell order right now)- mostly due to the thinner than water 0W-8 oil and the cylinder deactivation lifters that fail. Hyundai/Kia engines have serious issues and recalls (they like to throw rods through the side of the blocks). Everybody who makes a CVT transmission continues to have them crap out early (like they always have- Nissan in particular). Ford has 700,000+ vehicles on recall for fuel pump and or leaky fuel injector issues that can cause fires...
Seems like all new cars today are a crap shoot.
GM recalls nearly 600,000 trucks and SUVs over risk of engine failure
The recall follows a January investigation by U.S. auto safety regulators into reports of engine failure in certain GM vehicles.www.cbsnews.com
Yup, add direct injection and PCV system to the list. PCV by itself is not terrible although an old timey catch can is better. DI, unlike port injection does not clean ports and valve tops so PCV muck accumulates which will cause performance issues in as little as 60k miles. Another awful tech is welt oil pump belt which stretch and when broken destroys the engine. It is also expensive maintenance item. I don't want any of this crap and prefer 2000's cars which have no eco-gizmos. My current vehicle is a 2003 4Runner with the bullet proof 1GR-FE V6. My previous vehicle was 2008 Crown Vic with equally bullet proof 2V Modular V8. If I were to pick a newer car, it would be a Toyota or Lexus with normally aspirated engine, DI and port fuel injected, and no CVT.
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My four cylinder 04 Accord and Camry agree one hundred percent. All cars are nice when they're new and that 'thrill' wears quickly when things start happening.
I agree. Although I've been a GMC fanboy for most of my life, my eyes were opened when I bought a Nissan Kingcab 4x4 back in the middle 80's.
Of course, interstate speed limits were 55 mph back in those days, but that darn truck had a 4cyl engine with 8 spark plugs and when I drove it from Tyler, Tx to DSM, Ia - I still have the old logs showing 40+ MPG. I was astounded coming from the small block chevy's.
EDIT: and when I started building off road rigs, a popular platform was the old Toyota's, those things were built like little tanks.
YY1
Addicted Member
I am a hard core Mopar guy since 1984.
That has not been an especially easy ride.
However, I now own a 2015 Renegade 1.4 turbo, six speed manual.
It has a better power to weight ratio than my 1973 Duster with a 360...
...and it averages 34.5 MPG.
I bought it 2 years old with 31,000 miles. Now passing 118,000.
The only maintenance has been wear items- I just did the timing belt, but that's a wear item.
...and today I replaced the torque strut. $36 and 3 hours my labor.
I also own a 2000 Dakota R/T extended cab truck.
5.9 V8 AOD.
Also bought at 2 years old with 30,000 miles. Now at 177,000.
It has been the most dependable vehicle I have ever owned.
In that vehicles day, no one could seemingly build an overdrive automatic that lasted more then about 50K miles.
Mine has never been serviced and still has the factory fluid.
...and I borderline abuse this vehicle.
It is used "as a truck" and is frequently borderline overloaded, including dragging home cars and even full size trucks from halfway across the state.
That era vehicles are IMO "just right" in the mix of old school and new school tech.
It is the last era of vehicles I can still work on for 90% of the issues I am likely to face.
...and it still has metal bumpers.
That has not been an especially easy ride.
However, I now own a 2015 Renegade 1.4 turbo, six speed manual.
It has a better power to weight ratio than my 1973 Duster with a 360...
...and it averages 34.5 MPG.
I bought it 2 years old with 31,000 miles. Now passing 118,000.
The only maintenance has been wear items- I just did the timing belt, but that's a wear item.
...and today I replaced the torque strut. $36 and 3 hours my labor.
I also own a 2000 Dakota R/T extended cab truck.
5.9 V8 AOD.
Also bought at 2 years old with 30,000 miles. Now at 177,000.
It has been the most dependable vehicle I have ever owned.
In that vehicles day, no one could seemingly build an overdrive automatic that lasted more then about 50K miles.
Mine has never been serviced and still has the factory fluid.
...and I borderline abuse this vehicle.
It is used "as a truck" and is frequently borderline overloaded, including dragging home cars and even full size trucks from halfway across the state.
That era vehicles are IMO "just right" in the mix of old school and new school tech.
It is the last era of vehicles I can still work on for 90% of the issues I am likely to face.
...and it still has metal bumpers.
Reasons are many, varied and complicated. I don't buy the "greed" argument which is endemic to the human condition. That said, there are different ways of practicing "greed" (for lack of a better word): One that sacrifices long term rewards for short-term, short-lived ones; visa versa for the other.
Better business tend to practice the latter.
Better business tend to practice the latter.
When you have makers installing gas delivery system that uses both port and direct to keep the back of the valves from gumming up tells you that direct injection isn't the way to go. It's one of the many reasons I went with a 2025 Maverick hybrid because it uses port injection.
The decay of the US auto industry started with the rise of foreign competition in the early 1970s. Ever since, the Big Three have been playing "catch up" to retain market share. They no longer had blind loyalty from the American buyers. There are other reasons that started to materialize in the mid 2000s regarding reliability, cost, vehicle cost rising due to too many luxury features becoming standard equipment, etc. Since then the cost of vehicles have been rising way faster than the average income of the buyers.
In the 2010s, luxury cars got to the point where they were almost impossible to own and maintain once they were out of warranty. The term "repair totaled" was born which means the cost of normally routine repairs ballooned to be more that the vehicle was worth. This has only gotten worse in the 2020s with even mundane repairs going into the multiple thousands of dollars due to insane levels of technology added to all levels of vehicles. These days when one minor issue needs repaired it typically requires the replacement of a module that controls many other functions that aren't failing. Many of these modules cost thousands of dollars for the part plus the labor to replace them. It is not uncommon for a busted headlight or tail light to cost $2k for the part alone.
Add this to depreciation rates on new vehicles, especially so for EVs, being insane and owning a newer vehicle beyond its warranty period is like walking through a financial mine field. The cost of repairs has caused insurance rates to skyrocket. IMO, the only way for the domestic auto industries to survive is to go back to offering simpler, less costly, easier/cheaper to repair and maintain vehicles. I see this happening to some extent but it will take a lot more buying options for the consumers to keep the decline from worsening.
In the 2010s, luxury cars got to the point where they were almost impossible to own and maintain once they were out of warranty. The term "repair totaled" was born which means the cost of normally routine repairs ballooned to be more that the vehicle was worth. This has only gotten worse in the 2020s with even mundane repairs going into the multiple thousands of dollars due to insane levels of technology added to all levels of vehicles. These days when one minor issue needs repaired it typically requires the replacement of a module that controls many other functions that aren't failing. Many of these modules cost thousands of dollars for the part plus the labor to replace them. It is not uncommon for a busted headlight or tail light to cost $2k for the part alone.
Add this to depreciation rates on new vehicles, especially so for EVs, being insane and owning a newer vehicle beyond its warranty period is like walking through a financial mine field. The cost of repairs has caused insurance rates to skyrocket. IMO, the only way for the domestic auto industries to survive is to go back to offering simpler, less costly, easier/cheaper to repair and maintain vehicles. I see this happening to some extent but it will take a lot more buying options for the consumers to keep the decline from worsening.
GM made some legendary motors back in the day ,example small block chevy which survived in one form or another for almost 5 decades ! Olds, Pontiac , Buick motors pretty bullet proof ! Caddilac 425 - 500 hard to kill ! Then there was the Vega motor ,ht4100 caddy which were terrible ! But a lot of the malaise motors of the era , 265, 301 were gutless wonders but still were pretty durable !
Also recent disasters , GMs 3 cylinder turbo wet belt motor in the new tracs yikes !!!!! As well as a lot of fords ecoboom motors !
Chevy, GMC and Ram are having a lot of issues with the four cylinder turbo engines they are putting is trucks and other vehicles. It seems like the domestic automakers can't help but design in a ticking time bomb, or two, that will destroy an engine when anyone with three neurons connected would have known better. It seems like they want these engines to fail early and repair total these vehicles.
I have, rather tongue in cheek, "suggested" that the bosses of ALL automakers (remember that there's not as many as you think with all the mergers and badge engineering) just get together over a round of golf (or whatever) and simply decide who's offering is going to be "the best thing since sliced bread" for a few months (until the "issues" start to appear) and then who's shall follow etc. etc. so they all get a nice slice of the cake for a while then wait for their "turn" to come around again.
Obviously it's pure speculation.......
I think they are all offering vehicles that the general public doesn't want, can't afford or can maintain after the warranty expires. It seems like planned obsolescence is their main business strategy these days. IMO, they could be making vehicles that could easily last 300k+ miles these days.
Absolutely. Current manufacturing tolerances that can be reliably repeated are way beyond anything our forebears could have dreamed of and they produced stuff that could be mended and has lasted for decades.
But where's the profit, in that?
Let's go for smoke and mirrors and marketing and advertising and see just how far anything can be "sold" to the public......
grillebilly
Empty Head
Some very important and spot-on responses in this thread. The US were the envy of the world before they were tasked with reducing emissions. Japan pretty much reversed engineered the US and the UK drivelines early on to get started.
You can call it greed, I think capitalism was the downfall. Capitalism is nothing more than giving the people what they want, while making the most profit. The US was lazy, thinking people would buy their offerings without being better. The risk they took was a bad one. Fatal, even. We built second tier vehicles in a time when building anything decent was a gigantic challenge. The competition worked harder and caught the US napping. Consumers are the ultimate report card, buyers are more savvy than engineers or bean-counters.
It took a couple decades for the US to catch up. By then there were too many "loyal" buyers of foreign makes. Which was the reverse of 1970.
You can call it greed, I think capitalism was the downfall. Capitalism is nothing more than giving the people what they want, while making the most profit. The US was lazy, thinking people would buy their offerings without being better. The risk they took was a bad one. Fatal, even. We built second tier vehicles in a time when building anything decent was a gigantic challenge. The competition worked harder and caught the US napping. Consumers are the ultimate report card, buyers are more savvy than engineers or bean-counters.
It took a couple decades for the US to catch up. By then there were too many "loyal" buyers of foreign makes. Which was the reverse of 1970.
@grillebilly
Toyota and Honda aren't going down the planned obsolescence path like so many other automakers. They are slaying everyone else these days. Five of the top ten selling vehicles in the USA is one of these brands. If it wasn't for pickups, none of the Big Three would be in the top ten.
Toyota and Honda aren't going down the planned obsolescence path like so many other automakers. They are slaying everyone else these days. Five of the top ten selling vehicles in the USA is one of these brands. If it wasn't for pickups, none of the Big Three would be in the top ten.
mrehorst
Super Member
My last American car was my first car, a 1972 Ford Maverick whose body was mostly rust held together with bondo. I drove that POS from 1982-84, IRIC. After that and after seeing Lee Iacocca's face on every magazine cover, TV talk show, cereal box, and milk carton for a few years, I vowed never to own an American made car again.