What if....VPI Classic vs Yamaha GT-2000

[theophile]

What did Yamaha create when they set the train in motion that eventually produced this gem of a turntable? It is an amazing achievement. Sure it needs help with regard to isolation, but isolation is not going to transform a pig's ear into a silk purse. The better the recording the more this thing is able to shock. It is a shocking turntable. Shocking with the degree of low level information. Shocking with the degree of subtlety. Shocking with the dynamics. Shocking with the ability to convey true instrumental tone and timbre. Shocking with the ability to convey the musical message.

I love where isolation takes this turntable. It is not revealed easily. There is a lot of fine tuning but the inherent ability of this turntable yields the result when the tuning is right. Then the GT caterpillar emerges from the cocoon and boy is it a beautiful thing. Forget the criticisms of the arm. The arm is not, I repeat not the limiting factor on this turntable. Though I've never heard the accessory suspension cradle, it's obvious that Yamaha didn't offer it merely for appearances sake. The GT is just a pale hint of what it can be without some form of isolation, and even then(with isolation such as I utilise) it still needs to be tuned for the majority of the effect to come through.

I can see why many of the best turntables in the world come bundled with an isolation support or utilise integral isolation. Having said that I never heard any isolated turntable sound quite like this years ago when I did my most extensive listening. The GT's quality level repays the time spent on this aspect and I have heard first hand that it is mandatory to getting the best out of this turntable. The GT is a gorgeous caterpillar

which can transform into a breathtaking butterfly.

It is the music which then takes flight.

 

[Mark B]

Add the 18kg gunmetal platter, cast iron base & outboard power supply to the GT-2000 and I wonder how many modern tables would equal it.

 

[theophile]

Add the 18kg gunmetal platter, cast iron base & outboard power supply to the GT-2000 and I wonder how many modern tables would equal it.

I'm sure that it could be exceeded, but to do so the price in today's dollars would be that of a very good new car.

Not bad for a almost 35 year old turntable.

Given the cost of getting one today, it remains one of the second hand bargains available. This is a turntable worth assembling a system around.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

The king of Japanese Domestic Market automatic featured DD is what we have here in the Yamaha GT 2000. Gigantic and Tremendous is not hyperbole. It is just that. The best non broadcast Japanese DD deck arguably. Which puts it in the elite.

 

[Ken Wood Jr.]

Disclaimer: I'm a Gingko Audio dealer.

I placed the Yamaha GT-2000 on the Gingko Cloud 10 isolation platform. WOW! So, I have two 3" slabs of maple separated by Sound Fusion isolation pucks, then the Cloud 10. The sound is pretty amazing with both the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and the Ortofon Quintet Black, which is surprisingly good. I love this table.

 

[theophile]

Disclaimer: I'm a Gingko Audio dealer.

I placed the Yamaha GT-2000 on the Gingko Cloud 10 isolation platform. WOW! So, I have two 3" slabs of maple separated by Sound Fusion isolation pucks, then the Cloud 10. The sound is pretty amazing with both the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze and the Ortofon Quintet Black, which is surprisingly good. I love this table.

No offence meant at all when I say this Ken:

I think that the Ginko is showing just a taste of what is possible. The taste would be sufficient to open your eyes to the possibilities. The GT 2000 is such a phenomenally quiet turntable that any removal of extraneous vibration no matter how small gives the GT a chance to display its heroic quietness. With the aid of a very well resolved system, the difference that this makes can be a revelation. The GT sounds beyond criticism without isolation. One wonders what improvement could possibly be needed such is the joy and beauty of the sound. With further efforts and application of isolation the true uncovered potential of the turntable is revealed, and it isn't a slight degree. It is actually staggering. This is a truly great turntable. No excuses need to be made. Not about the arm. Not about anything. A truly great turntable by any measure.

Now to put that into perspective, as I have said before, I feel that all of the high quality non-suspended turntables would similarly benefit from proper dedicated isolation application. Not just the GT 2000. I also feel that it is an aspect of turntable set-up which is never taken far enough. Too many people rely on a rigid heavy stand or wall mounting, sand boxes, sorbothane etc which can all provide improvement but are nowhere near what can be achieved.

A high quality turntable/arm/cartridge/phono stage is a vibration resolver/reader par excellance. For good and ill. It'll pick up everything you want and everything else that the environment provides that you don't want. It is all the input that you don't want which holds-back and limits the performance of the Ultra capable turntables, No matter which ultra that might be. If anything, the better the rig the more that this limitation applies. In use that means that the true capability of the esteemed turntable/arm/cartridge/phone stage is nowhere near being realised. I maintain that almost all owners of great combinations have never heard 50% of what their rig can really achieve. No matter how satisfied they are with the sound. No matter how well it compares with other rigs.

Because we are all in the dark about just how good this medium can really sound. :yes:

Essentially none are hearing their vinyl Source and the full extent of just how amazing it can sound. Some have made a token effort and are thrilled with the benefits but there is so much more that they can't imagine to be achieved and because there is a massive misunderstanding of the true potential of the ultra decks, all settle for the beautiful compromise. Why not? Their rigs sound awesome to them. Well believe me; Awesome is the stepping-off point. Where individually tuned and optimised isolation can take this is simply incredible.

Those who dismiss vinyl as a sentimental relic would **** their pants if they heard what was possible.

 

[ateal]

Theo, you intrigue me greatly with your wonderful descriptions of how much sound quality you have managed to extract from your turntable by means of isolation. This intrigue has teased me so much that I have searched your previous posts to find out the methods you have used so that I may try to emulate them to see if I too can reap some of the rewards you have gained.

I did find a post where you talked about some of your methods but I could not quite get my head around it all (it seemed quite complex for my humble brain to visualize). Also given that this is a very passionate pursuit of yours I feel you may well have moved on in your methods from this previous post.

Therefore I hope you don't feel it too presumptuous for me to ask if you could articulate your latest methods of isolation so I can try to get some of the amazing gains that you have achieved.

No worries if you don't have the time at the moment. But if do have time in the future, I am sure it will benefit many.

Thanks

 

[theophile]

Theo, you intrigue me greatly with your wonderful descriptions of how much sound quality you have managed to extract from your turntable by means of isolation. This intrigue has teased me so much that I have searched your previous posts to find out the methods you have used so that I may try to emulate them to see if I too can reap some of the rewards you have gained.

I did find a post where you talked about some of your methods but I could not quite get my head around it all (it seemed quite complex for my humble brain to visualize). Also given that this is a very passionate pursuit of yours I feel you may well have moved on in your methods from this previous post.

Therefore I hope you don't feel it too presumptuous for me to ask if you could articulate your latest methods of isolation so I can try to get some of the amazing gains that you have achieved.

No worries if you don't have the time at the moment. But if do have time in the future, I am sure it will benefit many.

Thanks

I'll PM you.

 

[jblnut]

I've been meaning to add some more to this thread and Theo has been nice enough to pick up the torch again so I'll keep it going.

I have finally moved past my "entry level MC carts are good enough" mentality to try out some really stellar units on both the GT2K and the VPI Classic. Courtesy of some kind local Ak members looking to thin their herds, I have removed the AT OC9/II and 33EV units on my tables. In their place went a Spectral MCR Signature (on the GT2k - a fitting vintage hi-end LOMC that might have found itself on a GT2000 back in the day) and a Dynavector Karat 17D3 (on the Classic). There was also a brief flirtation with an insanely good Transfiguration Temper Supreme that I ultimately passed on mostly due to its high cost, but more on that in a minute.

So now, what I can say is this - I listen mostly to the GT. The Spectral is "THE ONE" for this table. It does all the things I want a cartridge to do and the GT absolutely gets the most out of it. I'm hearing new-found levels of detail over the AT's, but without any of what I call "magnification fatigue" that I've experienced with some other cart-table combos. It just gets me closer to the recording without drawing too much attention to itself in the process. It's quite something to hear and I am really stoked that it's finally where I want it. It'll stay this way for a very long time.

The 17D3/Classic combo required more from my Tube Box in the way of gain so that is being swapped out for another members EAR 834p (with MC section). I'm still dialing this all in and it's extremely lively and dynamic right now. On some records it's too much and on others it's brilliant. Now that I've heard the Transfiguration on this table, I'm kind of ruined as that was just as "THE ONE" as the Spectral is on the GT. There's absolutely a table (or arm actually) and cart synergy that one has to get right and I admit I've not been as serious about this as I probably should have been. I'll keep working on the 17D3 though as I think I can get pretty close to where I was with the Transfiguration.

What I've learned in all this is:

Higher end tables and carts need a TON of fiddling and dialing in. All that resolution will work against you just as easily as it works for you at this level. Patience and time (lots of time) are required. Little tweaks to the VTA, tracking force and alignment make HUGE differences.

The phono sections don't sound NEARLY as different as the carts and tables do. Other than gain, the Tube Box gives up very little to the 834P or even my Xono for that matter. I never though I'd believe that (or post it) but I've played with this enough over the past few months to stand behind it now. Gain on the other hand - for ultra low output MC's - doesn't come cheap and you need to pony up for a quiet pre once you get below .3mv (or invest in transformers or a hybrid pre like the 834p).

If I was to keep only one table, it would be the GT2000, hands down. It's just easier to live with, align and use on a daily basis. All the little things like an arm that's easy to dial in, a hinged cover and the auto-lift add up over time. The Classic does offer a little more "air" and "space" to some recordings and that's clearly coming from that unipivot arm. But it comes at a cost of extreme "fiddleyness" and trouble with some carts (the Transfiguration tracked better on the GT no matter how much time I spent trying to get it perfect on the Classic).

I'll go back to listening for a few more months and check in again when I have something to say. Thanks for reading this far and for those thinking about importing a GT2000 instead of doing something sane like buying any number of $2k new tables out there - I say "GO FOR IT" !

jblnut

 

[illini]

If I was to keep only one table, it would be the GT2000, hands down.

That's about what I expected between the two tables. Thank you for posting your thoughts.

 

[theophile]

Not bad for turntable designed in the late '70s/earliest '80s. It really is a shame that Yamaha didn't release it worldwide back in the day.

 

[theophile]

That's about what I expected between the two tables. Thank you for posting your thoughts.

Even though jblnut is the second VPI Classic owner to give the GT 2000 the thumbs-up, I wasn't quite prepared for his enthusiasm for the GT.

 

[ateal]

Hi jblnut, do you have any further observations on the Spectral cartridge and are you still using it on the GT 2000 arm. The reason I ask is that I am looking for another low compliance cart that would compliment my GT 750 arm (it has the same effective mass as yours). I currently run an ebony bodied Denon 103 and have an aluminum body Denon 103 with Soundsmith for Ruby retip.

I absolutely love the sound from the ebony 103 on this heavyish tonearm and i am expecting even better from the SS retip aluminum body version once I get it back at end of July.

Even though I love what I have, i am fascinated by the Spectral as it has similar compliance figures to the Denon 103 and feel it would be a great match on a heavier arm and provide a great alternative to the two denon varieties i have.

Any further feedback on how this cart sounds now you have lived with it for some time would be most welcome.

I've been meaning to add some more to this thread and Theo has been nice enough to pick up the torch again so I'll keep it going.

I have finally moved past my "entry level MC carts are good enough" mentality to try out some really stellar units on both the GT2K and the VPI Classic. Courtesy of some kind local Ak members looking to thin their herds, I have removed the AT OC9/II and 33EV units on my tables. In their place went a Spectral MCR Signature (on the GT2k - a fitting vintage hi-end LOMC that might have found itself on a GT2000 back in the day) and a Dynavector Karat 17D3 (on the Classic). There was also a brief flirtation with an insanely good Transfiguration Temper Supreme that I ultimately passed on mostly due to its high cost, but more on that in a minute.

So now, what I can say is this - I listen mostly to the GT. The Spectral is "THE ONE" for this table. It does all the things I want a cartridge to do and the GT absolutely gets the most out of it. I'm hearing new-found levels of detail over the AT's, but without any of what I call "magnification fatigue" that I've experienced with some other cart-table combos. It just gets me closer to the recording without drawing too much attention to itself in the process. It's quite something to hear and I am really stoked that it's finally where I want it. It'll stay this way for a very long time.

The 17D3/Classic combo required more from my Tube Box in the way of gain so that is being swapped out for another members EAR 834p (with MC section). I'm still dialing this all in and it's extremely lively and dynamic right now. On some records it's too much and on others it's brilliant. Now that I've heard the Transfiguration on this table, I'm kind of ruined as that was just as "THE ONE" as the Spectral is on the GT. There's absolutely a table (or arm actually) and cart synergy that one has to get right and I admit I've not been as serious about this as I probably should have been. I'll keep working on the 17D3 though as I think I can get pretty close to where I was with the Transfiguration.

What I've learned in all this is:

Higher end tables and carts need a TON of fiddling and dialing in. All that resolution will work against you just as easily as it works for you at this level. Patience and time (lots of time) are required. Little tweaks to the VTA, tracking force and alignment make HUGE differences.

The phono sections don't sound NEARLY as different as the carts and tables do. Other than gain, the Tube Box gives up very little to the 834P or even my Xono for that matter. I never though I'd believe that (or post it) but I've played with this enough over the past few months to stand behind it now. Gain on the other hand - for ultra low output MC's - doesn't come cheap and you need to pony up for a quiet pre once you get below .3mv (or invest in transformers or a hybrid pre like the 834p).

If I was to keep only one table, it would be the GT2000, hands down. It's just easier to live with, align and use on a daily basis. All the little things like an arm that's easy to dial in, a hinged cover and the auto-lift add up over time. The Classic does offer a little more "air" and "space" to some recordings and that's clearly coming from that unipivot arm. But it comes at a cost of extreme "fiddleyness" and trouble with some carts (the Transfiguration tracked better on the GT no matter how much time I spent trying to get it perfect on the Classic).

I'll go back to listening for a few more months and check in again when I have something to say. Thanks for reading this far and for those thinking about importing a GT2000 instead of doing something sane like buying any number of $2k new tables out there - I say "GO FOR IT" !

jblnut

 

[jblnut]

I am still very much in love with the Spectral sound on the GT. It will stay on that table until it wears out and I could not be happier. If you can find one - jump on it !

jblnut