P
prix
Guest
There are some areas in my Harman Kardon A500 that need to be rewired. What should I use for wire in the signal path and other areas that would sound the best?
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P
prix
Guest
Yes I did, but I'm concerned that silver wire might sound a little bright and lean in the bass for my ears. I was hoping that copper would produce a little fatter and smoother sound.
WildWest
Super Member
oh gawd...
Stop all this! You guys are diving me nuts! Silver will merely conduct the electrical voltage better allowing you to run higher currents on a smaller gauge. I love how the word "Bright" has been associated by the novice audio hobbyist because silver merely looks bright. The rumors run deap and rampant in this hobby. Funny how the mind works. (Even funnier how well marketing works for the cable industry) :screwy:
WAIT WAIT WAIT! I know, I know, let me respond for you. "I've used different conductors and I have heard the differance"!
Ok ok...More power to you my fellow hobbyist. Glad it's your money and not mine. Enjoy!!
Stop all this! You guys are diving me nuts! Silver will merely conduct the electrical voltage better allowing you to run higher currents on a smaller gauge. I love how the word "Bright" has been associated by the novice audio hobbyist because silver merely looks bright. The rumors run deap and rampant in this hobby. Funny how the mind works. (Even funnier how well marketing works for the cable industry) :screwy:
WAIT WAIT WAIT! I know, I know, let me respond for you. "I've used different conductors and I have heard the differance"!
Ok ok...More power to you my fellow hobbyist. Glad it's your money and not mine. Enjoy!!
MikE
Color Me Gone
Echoing WW thoughts [or one statement made] I would'nt assume the "silver is bright" reasoning. Case in point. The aforementioned "Chimera" wire has a "silver signature" yet is cast copper. And the wire used to hook up my amp is solid silver / silver plated copper and has a "unsilver signature". Though, honestly those accessments concern their respective interconnect cables [not mere wire alone] that I sampled a few years ago in my "Cable Shootout". These were not the only cables that didn't reflect the signature of the wire used but they were the best example of successful products and that surprized me with their "unique signature". Considering your needs, the Bob Crump interconnect had the fattest, most ballsy sound I'd ever heard, and that was from a silver cable. That is one reason I chose that wire to hookup my amp. The other was the desire to have a silver conductor. I spoke with Bob on the signature of his interconnect vs that of the hookup wire he uses. I would Email rcrump@houston.rr.com him with any questions you may have, he is a great guy who is more interested in helping you out than selling product.
MikE
MikE
P
prix
Guest
Look, ace, I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just telling you what I've heard from other people. I obviously don't have a clue, otherwise I wouldn't be asking. If you can recommend a good wire to use, please let me know. That's what I'm trying to find out.
just jealous of those that hear the difference 
WildWest
Super Member
Yea, yea, jealous that's the ticket! Mike, your'e killin me! LOL Hmmm or is it my life long association and education in the electrical industry that keeps me from hearing it?
Careful what you "hear" from people as there are many out there that hear advertising in this hobby. Mankind is great in the rumor department. Also there are many with ties to this or that particular industry and it means money to them. So many folks are soooooo hungry to hear anything, that they do. Do yourself a little reading on the theory and principals of conductive materials. That will be your best source of information.
Hey "ace". I really wasn't trying to start a "war". either I promise!!
I was just throwing in my two cents so that you might see past the rumors and false advertising. That's it! Actually I get a real charge outta this kinda of talk. Ya know, like ready fiction and chit? 
Careful what you "hear" from people as there are many out there that hear advertising in this hobby. Mankind is great in the rumor department. Also there are many with ties to this or that particular industry and it means money to them. So many folks are soooooo hungry to hear anything, that they do. Do yourself a little reading on the theory and principals of conductive materials. That will be your best source of information.
Hey "ace". I really wasn't trying to start a "war". either I promise!!
I was just throwing in my two cents so that you might see past the rumors and false advertising. That's it! Actually I get a real charge outta this kinda of talk. Ya know, like ready fiction and chit?
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good wire
I like to use top quality silver plated stranded copper wire with Teflon insulation. This wire is a superb conductor, unlike copper it forms a conductive oxide layer, is forever and the insulation won't get brittle in the heat of a tube chassis, or melt if contacting power resistors or power tube envelopes.
If it was oxygen free, grain oriented wire, die extruded through an electric eel's butt on a day when all the planets were aligned...well, I just wouldn't pay extra for that.
WildWest is right on in his comments BTW. Some folk clutch a bible for spiritual comfort and in kind of the same way too many audiophools clutch bizarre marketing concepts (snake oil) for spiritual comfort. I'm not picking on anyone in particular here either so no flames please.
Rob
I like to use top quality silver plated stranded copper wire with Teflon insulation. This wire is a superb conductor, unlike copper it forms a conductive oxide layer, is forever and the insulation won't get brittle in the heat of a tube chassis, or melt if contacting power resistors or power tube envelopes.
If it was oxygen free, grain oriented wire, die extruded through an electric eel's butt on a day when all the planets were aligned...well, I just wouldn't pay extra for that.
WildWest is right on in his comments BTW. Some folk clutch a bible for spiritual comfort and in kind of the same way too many audiophools clutch bizarre marketing concepts (snake oil) for spiritual comfort. I'm not picking on anyone in particular here either so no flames please.
Rob
P
prix
Guest
What about Kimber or Cardas wire?
Those names appear in ads for boutique equipment that use their wire. It is probably very good wire, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that it is wire like I use made by one of the big manufacturers like Carol, Canada Wire, etc., and just re-badged and priced X1000 the wholesale price from the OEM. Gotta pay for those high cost ads in Stereophile ya' know.
Rob
P
prix
Guest
You're probably right. So can anyone direct me to a web address where I can find this good, insulated silver wire I should use? Also, what about Cat 5 or Cat 6 wire?
MikE
Color Me Gone
WW - If an explaination were required
No problem whatsoever. I'm all to familiar with the "cable wars" and the attitude of "I get a real charge outta this kinda of talk". Most enthusiasts are divided on the subject of cables; either they have found that product type to have a positive impact or that it is just hype, having no real effect. I obviously belong to the group that have witnessed the benefits firsthand, though addmittedly have acknowledged that I've found my system less dependant on that product type, or that the particular product I use is "close enough" for my needs. I'm quite pleased with the "wire" in my system but when opportunity presents itself I'll accept offers to give other varieties a listen. If for no other reason than to provide feedback. You'll find my correspondences on that subject to be between other like-minded enthusiasts and not those that are skeptical in the product type. Nothing I say will change one's attitudes that has evolved over years of "education", "experience" or "personal beliefs". But what do I care, I don't sell the stuff!
MikE
No problem whatsoever. I'm all to familiar with the "cable wars" and the attitude of "I get a real charge outta this kinda of talk". Most enthusiasts are divided on the subject of cables; either they have found that product type to have a positive impact or that it is just hype, having no real effect. I obviously belong to the group that have witnessed the benefits firsthand, though addmittedly have acknowledged that I've found my system less dependant on that product type, or that the particular product I use is "close enough" for my needs. I'm quite pleased with the "wire" in my system but when opportunity presents itself I'll accept offers to give other varieties a listen. If for no other reason than to provide feedback. You'll find my correspondences on that subject to be between other like-minded enthusiasts and not those that are skeptical in the product type. Nothing I say will change one's attitudes that has evolved over years of "education", "experience" or "personal beliefs". But what do I care, I don't sell the stuff!
MikE
MikE
Color Me Gone
I'd agree with Rob, and as long as you're not [still] "concerned that silver wire might sound a little bright and lean in the bass" I'd contact Bob Crump about his hookup wire.
Not all CAT wire is the same. You need to look for specific numbers [do a search]. And remember, some CAT5 cables use FEP teflon to insulate the bare copper. Not all CAT5 does, and not all CAT6 does. Many have tinned conductors and PVC insulation, and the PVC insulated CAT wire is not as good as the FEP teflon CAT. The possibilities are endless...
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/searc...sage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=tubediy
MikE
Not all CAT wire is the same. You need to look for specific numbers [do a search]. And remember, some CAT5 cables use FEP teflon to insulate the bare copper. Not all CAT5 does, and not all CAT6 does. Many have tinned conductors and PVC insulation, and the PVC insulated CAT wire is not as good as the FEP teflon CAT. The possibilities are endless...
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/searc...sage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=tubediy
MikE
pRC
New Member
wire and more wire
Hrm. Well, I've only been building my own stuff for about 4 years now, but I have tried a few things. And, hey, it's a discussion forum so here goes:
Magnet Wire
I've used the Doc Bottlehead 20 ga magnet wire and various Belden gauges. Bottlehead wire seems to sound better and it is also a lot easier to remove the insulation - use a hot soldering iron to melt off the insulation and tin the end in the same pass using a '3rd hand' or other clamp. Magnet wire is nice because it is solid core and stays where ya put it, plus it doesn't need insulation (I still like to maintain an air gap between it and anything else for safety). Negatives - gotta get the insulation coating off before soldering; also it is copper and can break if bent repeatedly.
CAT5 Wire
Look for plenum grade (CAT5e and CAT6e) to get Teflon (FEP or PTFE) insulation - note that outer jacket is not Teflon except in the most expensive versions. For most cable manufacturers, getting PTFE or FEP to adhere to bare copper is a pain, hence the number of silver coatings you find in copper/teflon offerings - manufacturers really use the silver to improve the insulation application, not to improve the wire conductivity. But in the case of CAT5 we are talking about seriously large amounts of wire and consequent huge investments in quality/production controls. So with CAT5 the manufacturers can control the dedicated machinery well enough to get good consistency with the coatings. This is also why plenum CAT5 costs so much more than PVC CAT5, so they can amortize the equipment needed - the materials cost is not that different. I know several DIY tube guys that use CAT5e in their amps for all wiring and their stuff sounds great. I've used it for interconnect and speaker cable construction and have been very happy with the results. I think it's the most cost-effective quality wire out there, especially if you can scarf some cutoffs from your friendly neighborhood company network wiring guy (who is constantly rewiring our offices anyway). I ended up buying a 1000 foot spool of Belden CAT5e when a local electronics store went out of business so I have enough to last the rest of my life. Negatives - 26ga solid core only, and each pair has a different twist rate, and you need really sharp wire strippers to get the insulation off of it...
Solid Silver Wire
I've ordered silver wire from Michael Percy and also from Myron Toback (NY jewelry supplier), and it's a heckuva lot less money from Toback, but you have to convert gauge to inch diameter sizes and be sure to order 'Fine Silver' and not Sterling (an alloy). As WildWest said above, silver is just a better conductor, and I can hear more difference in solder joint quality and wire size than silver v. copper. That said, silver does have one giant advantage in wiring - silver oxide is a great conductor, while copper oxide is a semiconductor. This means that as our amps age and oxidation builds (rust never sleeps, etc.) even perfect copper joins start to exhibit small scale semiconductor effects and noise, while silver is... But there just isn't that much wire in a point-to-point tube amp anyway. Plus, silver is *pretty* and it impresses other DIY folks. Negatives - cost, but this is not as high with alternate (jewelry) sources, plus you have to use teflon or other sleeving for insulation in tight areas.
Wire Sizes
This seems to really matter. I use two different gauges of wire in my amps -
Signal wiring - 26 to 30ga wire. Smaller seems better, but it is more difficult to work (Dang! snagged it again). I bought a reel of 18ga teflon sleeving for general use and it is much stiffer than the 30 ga wire - starts to get unruly.
Power and Grounds wiring - 18 to 22ga wire. I have an unwarranted personal misconception that grounds are more important than signal in an amplifier, so I run star grounds, I shield grounds, I run large diameter grounds, and I run silver grounds. So sue me, it seems to work. Power wires should be sized based on the current requirements (hint, even with 845 filaments 18 ga is plenty big).
Hope this might help you, there's a lot more but I need to go work on a project for Blithe now... I'll check back later to see if anyone has questions or flames for me!
Thanks/pRC
Oh yeah, one more thing - the Radio Shack PVC insulated 18 ga copper wire sounds pretty good in power supplies. And the high quality solid-core copper FEP foam video coax works well for power and ground lines if you can find it.
Hrm. Well, I've only been building my own stuff for about 4 years now, but I have tried a few things. And, hey, it's a discussion forum so here goes:
Magnet Wire
I've used the Doc Bottlehead 20 ga magnet wire and various Belden gauges. Bottlehead wire seems to sound better and it is also a lot easier to remove the insulation - use a hot soldering iron to melt off the insulation and tin the end in the same pass using a '3rd hand' or other clamp. Magnet wire is nice because it is solid core and stays where ya put it, plus it doesn't need insulation (I still like to maintain an air gap between it and anything else for safety). Negatives - gotta get the insulation coating off before soldering; also it is copper and can break if bent repeatedly.
CAT5 Wire
Look for plenum grade (CAT5e and CAT6e) to get Teflon (FEP or PTFE) insulation - note that outer jacket is not Teflon except in the most expensive versions. For most cable manufacturers, getting PTFE or FEP to adhere to bare copper is a pain, hence the number of silver coatings you find in copper/teflon offerings - manufacturers really use the silver to improve the insulation application, not to improve the wire conductivity. But in the case of CAT5 we are talking about seriously large amounts of wire and consequent huge investments in quality/production controls. So with CAT5 the manufacturers can control the dedicated machinery well enough to get good consistency with the coatings. This is also why plenum CAT5 costs so much more than PVC CAT5, so they can amortize the equipment needed - the materials cost is not that different. I know several DIY tube guys that use CAT5e in their amps for all wiring and their stuff sounds great. I've used it for interconnect and speaker cable construction and have been very happy with the results. I think it's the most cost-effective quality wire out there, especially if you can scarf some cutoffs from your friendly neighborhood company network wiring guy (who is constantly rewiring our offices anyway). I ended up buying a 1000 foot spool of Belden CAT5e when a local electronics store went out of business so I have enough to last the rest of my life. Negatives - 26ga solid core only, and each pair has a different twist rate, and you need really sharp wire strippers to get the insulation off of it...
Solid Silver Wire
I've ordered silver wire from Michael Percy and also from Myron Toback (NY jewelry supplier), and it's a heckuva lot less money from Toback, but you have to convert gauge to inch diameter sizes and be sure to order 'Fine Silver' and not Sterling (an alloy). As WildWest said above, silver is just a better conductor, and I can hear more difference in solder joint quality and wire size than silver v. copper. That said, silver does have one giant advantage in wiring - silver oxide is a great conductor, while copper oxide is a semiconductor. This means that as our amps age and oxidation builds (rust never sleeps, etc.) even perfect copper joins start to exhibit small scale semiconductor effects and noise, while silver is... But there just isn't that much wire in a point-to-point tube amp anyway. Plus, silver is *pretty* and it impresses other DIY folks. Negatives - cost, but this is not as high with alternate (jewelry) sources, plus you have to use teflon or other sleeving for insulation in tight areas.
Wire Sizes
This seems to really matter. I use two different gauges of wire in my amps -
Signal wiring - 26 to 30ga wire. Smaller seems better, but it is more difficult to work (Dang! snagged it again). I bought a reel of 18ga teflon sleeving for general use and it is much stiffer than the 30 ga wire - starts to get unruly.
Power and Grounds wiring - 18 to 22ga wire. I have an unwarranted personal misconception that grounds are more important than signal in an amplifier, so I run star grounds, I shield grounds, I run large diameter grounds, and I run silver grounds. So sue me, it seems to work. Power wires should be sized based on the current requirements (hint, even with 845 filaments 18 ga is plenty big).
Hope this might help you, there's a lot more but I need to go work on a project for Blithe now... I'll check back later to see if anyone has questions or flames for me!
Thanks/pRC
Oh yeah, one more thing - the Radio Shack PVC insulated 18 ga copper wire sounds pretty good in power supplies. And the high quality solid-core copper FEP foam video coax works well for power and ground lines if you can find it.
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MikE
Color Me Gone
Welcome pRC
Nice to have another DIY tube/wire guy around. If you get a chance post your system in the Gallery. I'd like to see whatelse you have besides that nice TT. BTW - What's your opinion on the situation I found myself when my amp was "wired backwards"? MikE
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8577&highlight=moth+wired+backwards
Nice to have another DIY tube/wire guy around. If you get a chance post your system in the Gallery. I'd like to see whatelse you have besides that nice TT. BTW - What's your opinion on the situation I found myself when my amp was "wired backwards"? MikE
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8577&highlight=moth+wired+backwards
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