What to drive new Magnepan 3.7i's

[MarmotDavid]

I've got a new pair of Magnepan 3.7i's. Currently I'm using my older, unrestored Counterpoint SA-1000 tube/hybrid preamp and and old solid-state Conrad Johnson Sonograph SA-250 power amp. The setup sounds pretty good but I'm sure it could be improved with some newer preamp and power amp, so I'm looking to upgrade these aging electronics. I don't feel I'm getting the best out of these great speakers with this level of preamp and power amp

I'm willing to spend up to about $6000 on a new combination of a preamp and power amp. I have a medium sized listening room and I generally don't listen at really loud levels, so I'm not interested in really beastlike power amps or mono blocks. I like a detailed, warmer sound with good soundstage and very present vocals at moderate levels, if that helps. I need a MM phono stage, Maybe some combination of tube and solid state? I might even consider a big integrated if I knew it worked well with the Maggies. Also, I would definitely buy used if necessary but would probably avoid anything unrestored if it is over, say, 15 years old.

Please let me know all your ideas and comments. All will be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[jazzmans]

regardless of your listening volume, I say get BIG power. my maggies eat every watt I can give them, and I'm feeding them 400-600 wpc.
1.6QR and
2.5R

more power doesn't make them louder, but makes them sound better.
personally? I'd go for a modern pro amp from (insert pro amp company you like here)
Crown, Mcintosh, ....

oh, and i'm jealous! I want a pair of 3 (or 20) so badly!

 

[ejman]

The usual recommendation for Magneplanars is more power and the SA-250 is probably at lower end of the range of whats recommended power wise for the 3.7's. Having said that I've found the strange case with my own Maggies (1.7's) that I like the sound I'm getting with both of my amps (SS -Conrad Johnson MF 2300A -450 watts at 4 ohms and tube - Jolida 502P 60 watts) so wattage may not be as important with the caveat that I listen mostly to Jazz and acoustic music at reasonable levels (peaks at 80-85 db) in a medium size room (14X23). Personally I would try different preamps as I've found that to have a huge impact on what you find lacking "I like a detailed, warmer sound with good soundstage and very present vocals at moderate levels"

 

[twiiii]

If you want to power Maggies my friend whose a dealer of Maggies recommends amps that are direct coupled providing lots of current. . He says Maggies with the Autoformered amps are not the best choice. I bought a pair of MC 830's because I find with my speakers direct coupled works best, too. Other choices might be pre-owned Mark Levinson, Accuphase, or Luxman. Now the two Reference Crown amps were nice and both had plenty of power. But I am not fond of anything Crown has made recently other than the Ref series and the P2Sa models from the past. But if you were only going to power subs anything Crown makes is great. But for something as revealing as your Maggies, no way.

Way in the past I liked Sansui, but I don't think they made anything strong enough for Maggies. I listen to my line arrays normally around 12 watts and my speakers are 4 db more efficient so you would need 30 watts, which doesn't sound like much. But some of my Sheffield and Telarcs have 10 db or more peaks above average LP's and CD's so that would mean 120 watts for me and 300 watts for you. And I guarantee 120 watts short peaks are not terribly bothersome but can be rather enjoyable. It seems the average levels were as before but with just added dynamics we miss in live un-amplified concerts. Some of Mercurys last Living Presence LP's that were recorded on 35mm tape also contain some of those types of peaks, too. Command Classical Symphony recordings can sneak up on you also as can Sheffields.

The thing about Telarc is they reduce the average recording level of their CD's so when the peaks come along there is plenty of digital head room to handle the peaks. So you start the levels set higher when playing Telarc and Reference Recording CD to reach normal pleasant levels and then all of sudden those peaks appear and if you don't have the power or the speakers can't handle the power disturbing results can happen. But I have never heard a 3.7 even with 500 watts of power sound distorted with short peaks. There is a dealer in Portland and another in San Antonio and Houston that sold Maggies and I never heard the big panels pushed with a lot of power sound strained. What sounded bad was compromised recordings, Especially digital reissues. Plus you better have a great DAC if you are going to stream with Maggies. If you don't you will be swearing at all your streamed recordings.

I know I ramble, but I just wanted to stress by example that you should buy the absolute best you can to make your Maggies the "BEST They can BE!!"

 

[Old Guy8]

I have 1.7i driven by Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated V1. KT120 power tubes and 100 wpc. BTW, KT120 tubes are "ONLY made in Russia." So there is that negative. And KT120 difficult to find and very expensive now. Mine was special ordered without phono preamp. It has a little warmth to it. Lovely adding a touch of warmth, with 1.7i.

I also have used a Bryston BP20 preamp and 3B NRB power amp from '94. 125 wpc @ 8 ohms. 200 wpc @ 4 ohms.. Of course, it's brighter than the Rogue. It had a 20 year warranty. It only gets warm driving Maggie. Never hot. Bryston offers component and cosmetic refurbishing services with 3 yr. warranty for thier older amps.

I listen to mostly jazz in a 400sf+ X 7 ft height room. 75db spl average volume or less, at 10 feet away. I can't speak to question, if higher power amps sound better than these. Not tried larger amps.

Cronus Magnum makes Maggies sound lovely with a little warmth. Little more midrange focus. Vocals are great. The Bryston gives more bass punch and more high end sparkle. My hearing has a little tinnitus that can mask high frequencies.

Edit: I use this SPL meter. Bought on ebay for about $16, while back. I tried phone SPL apps first. I found same app on different phones, gave reading variation. But, apps are cheaper.

 

[sqlsavior]

Power, power, power, watts, watts, watts! says nearly everyone, and if you listen loud, I'm sure they're right. But you say you don't listen loud, and while that is relative, you may be able to get away with significantly less power than many assume. The speakers are 86 dB/2.83v, or 83 dB/1 watt. If you listen at 73 dB average, a ten-watt amp will cover 20 dB peaks. My 1.7s got as loud as I wanted to play them with 12 old rolled-off tube watts, but would sound better with the 12 class A solid state watts I have with this amp.

You may desire more prestigious amplification, in which case I would recommend one of the class-A Luxman integrateds, which will get you a good phono stage, and all the knobs and meters you'll need.

Feast your ears: http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=3 (I have a L-505u, class A/B, which forms the basis for my recommendation - haven't heard the L-550AXII myself)

I'd bet a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium tube amp would give it good competition - provided the right tubes and settings are used, out of maybe 64 possible combinations, not counting brands. Maybe get one with a volume knob, and then a separate phono preamp.

Regardless, I suggest getting a SPL app for your phone, and trying to determine your minimum, average, and peak volume levels, so you know what will satisfy. I use one called SPLnFFT, for my iPhone. If you find yourself listening at 80 dB average, you'll need more power, alright.

 

[ehoove]

From my experience - ARC LS16MkII or better preamp and Aragon 8008B or Palladium mono block power amps will be fabulous with Maggies. Bought used will be well under your budget.
Regards,
Jim

 

[Capitol C]

I think that it is worth stepping back and asking how much should you spend on an amplifier to drive great $6000 speakers? There is much difference of opinion on this issue, but I would suggest that, in addition to lots of power, you look at good amps with a high watts/dollar figure. Various Yamaha models come to mind, but there are a lot of other choices, of course.

 

[techguy0192]

A pair of Bryston 7B SST monoblocks. Use the remaining funds to buy a Bryston or Audio Research preamp. Either configuration is perfect for Magnepans.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Pass. As in something (new-ish) from Nelson.

 

[MarmotDavid]

A pair of Bryston 7B SST monoblocks. Use the remaining funds to buy a Bryston or Audio Research preamp. Either configuration is perfect for Magnepans.

Do you know why, technically, that Brystons are so often recommended for Magnepans? I've been pondering it for a while, and I can't seem to find any real explanation.

 

[MarmotDavid]

The usual recommendation for Magneplanars is more power and the SA-250 is probably at lower end of the range of whats recommended power wise for the 3.7's. Having said that I've found the strange case with my own Maggies (1.7's) that I like the sound I'm getting with both of my amps (SS -Conrad Johnson MF 2300A -450 watts at 4 ohms and tube - Jolida 502P 60 watts) so wattage may not be as important with the caveat that I listen mostly to Jazz and acoustic music at reasonable levels (peaks at 80-85 db) in a medium size room (14X23). Personally I would try different preamps as I've found that to have a huge impact on what you find lacking "I like a detailed, warmer sound with good soundstage and very present vocals at moderate levels"

I agree that the usual recommendation is lots of power. But yet, I often hear of people having much less powered amps that produce a pleasing music through the Maggies. For myself, my current Sonographe SA-250 as you say is probably on the low end of adequate. But it is hard for me to know what I am missing. Regarding your amps that you described, which was more pleasing to you: the Conrad Johnson or the Jolida, if you had to pick one with your 1.7s?

 

[techguy0192]

Do you know why, technically, that Brystons are so often recommended for Magnepans? I've been pondering it for a while, and I can't seem to find any real explanation.

Great synergy and Bryston amps are well know for not even flinching at difficult loads, low impedance, and/or other situations that would challenge a lot of other amps. While Magnepans are a very consistent 4 ohm load, their efficiency is on the low side.

Most importantly may be the fact that Magnepan routinely uses Bryston amps at shows to demo their speakers.

 

[ejman]

I agree that the usual recommendation is lots of power. But yet, I often hear of people having much less powered amps that produce a pleasing music through the Maggies. For myself, my current Sonographe SA-250 as you say is probably on the low end of adequate. But it is hard for me to know what I am missing. Regarding your amps that you described, which was more pleasing to you: the Conrad Johnson or the Jolida, if you had to pick one with your 1.7s?

Conrad Johnson did a good job of voicing their solid state amps (particularly their MOSFET amps) to be as close as possible to their tube amps. I was very happy with the MF 2300A but , kept reading reports of people using relatively low powered tube amps satisfactorily with Maggies and curiosity won the day and got the Jolida. It surprised me on how close it is to the CJ sound wise and in some ways it betters it, particularly in the 3D solidity of performers on the stage. Not surprisingly the CJ is better on the bass end with so much more power but the Jolida is acceptable. I should also mention that I use Tungsol KT 150's in my Jolida and find the sound much better (clearer, better bass, more solidity to sound stage) than with the original Tungsol 6550 tubes. As to which one? Sorry, I like them both and use both regularly - when I want to crank it up the CJ is the better choice - but for Jazz, and folk music the Jolida. I should also mention that for everyday use - with the Ukraine situation - the KT 150 tubes (they are made only in Russia) have gone stratospheric in price so I'm listening much more to the CJ now but before this current situation my listening was probably 75% Jolida 25% CJ. Hope this helps.

 

[MuseChaser]

I have a pair or 3.6R Maggies, and love them. They've sounded at least very good and always enjoyable on any of the three amps I've used with them. First was a B&K ST-140... but I missed a certain amount of the "you are there" detail I had heard from my smaller pair of Maggies. Swapped the ST-140 out for a Hafler XL-280 I had been using in my daily casual listening system. Big improvement, but still kind of congested on big orchestral tuttis. Bought a used Van Alstine Tanscendence 3 from Frank himself. An incredible pairing. Couldn't be happier.

 

[rocknroll1]

With a $6000 budget, I would be looking at Michi (Rotel High End Line) X3 $5300. It has 200 WPC @ 8 Ohm 350 WPC 4Ohm. If you could swing a little more look at the X5 350 WPC 8Ohm, 600 WPC 4 ohm $7500. They have good power with high current.They are very heavy and large so take that into account with your rack. The reviews are very good and I can vouch for the X3. Both have digital inputs and phono stages. The X3 has MM only and the X5 adds MC.

 

[Hyfi]

I have always heard Maggies want Current more than Watts. Years ago, Maggies were always demo'd in stores driven by Luxman amps because they had more current than others. I have heard of several people enjoying newer maggies with any one of the available newer Luxman 5xx series Integrateds.

 

[JoeESP9]

Here's a different point of view.

Through experience I've found that removing the bass (below 60-85Hz) from Magnepans and most ESLs allows them to play louder on less power. If that less power is tubes. Well....

Try them frequency limited to 65Hz-85Hz on the low end and 60WPC of tube power may be more than adequate.

 

[Ordin Aryguy]

All Magnepans have essentially the very same specifications, 86dB @ 2.83V input, and 4 Ohm impedance. From the few impedance vs. frequency curves that I've seen of the different models the impedances all relatively flat, especially if compared to conventional voice coil speakers. The Magnepan's impedance generally varies slighty from 3 Ohms to maybe up to 6 Ohms, where voice coil speakers can go from very low Ohms to many 10's of Ohms.

Driving Magnepans isn't magic, don't fall for old wive's tales. Just get an amplifier that is comfortable and capable of driving 4 Ohm loads, and has enough power to drive the speakers up to your preferred listening levels. Crown amplifier has a great online tool I recommend playing with to help determine how much power you really need. Spend some time playing with that tool, it'll open your eyes.

Remember, all Magnepans have almost the same exact specifications. All of them. The LRS is no harder to drive than the 30.7. They might sound different as there are very obvious physical differences (size!) in the sound generating planar elements, but your amplifier can't tell the difference from one to the other.

You might laugh, many have, but I'm driving my LRS's with a small class D amplifier and am extremely pleased with it. It can easily drive my speakers to levels well above my comfortable listening level of the mid-80 dB level, and do so without breaking a sweat. It barely warms to the touch when driven hard for many hours on end. It would do the exact same with 30.7's if I could afford them, and if I had 30.7's I wouldn't hesitate one second to use this little amp.

I'll go ahead and tell you that I'm using an $80 amp, (yeah, you read that right) the Aiyima A07. But there are a great number of class D amps out there that are very, very capable little creatures. Most class D amps have sufficiently low output impedance that the the Magnepans present no problem for them whatsoever. The class D technology has advanced to much over the past few years that they are simply amazing.

 

[ejman]

All Magnepans have essentially the very same specifications, 86dB @ 2.83V input, and 4 Ohm impedance. From the few impedance vs. frequency curves that I've seen of the different models the impedances all relatively flat, especially if compared to conventional voice coil speakers. The Magnepan's impedance generally varies slighty from 3 Ohms to maybe up to 6 Ohms, where voice coil speakers can go from very low Ohms to many 10's of Ohms.

Driving Magnepans isn't magic, don't fall for old wive's tales. Just get an amplifier that is comfortable and capable of driving 4 Ohm loads, and has enough power to drive the speakers up to your preferred listening levels. Crown amplifier has a great online tool I recommend playing with to help determine how much power you really need. Spend some time playing with that tool, it'll open your eyes.

Remember, all Magnepans have almost the same exact specifications. All of them. The LRS is no harder to drive than the 30.7. They might sound different as there are very obvious physical differences (size!) in the sound generating planar elements, but your amplifier can't tell the difference from one to the other.

You might laugh, many have, but I'm driving my LRS's with a small class D amplifier and am extremely pleased with it. It can easily drive my speakers to levels well above my comfortable listening level of the mid-80 dB level, and do so without breaking a sweat. It barely warms to the touch when driven hard for many hours on end. It would do the exact same with 30.7's if I could afford them, and if I had 30.7's I wouldn't hesitate one second to use this little amp.

I'll go ahead and tell you that I'm using an $80 amp, (yeah, you read that right) the Aiyima A07. But there are a great number of class D amps out there that are very, very capable little creatures. Most class D amps have sufficiently low output impedance that the the Magnepans present no problem for them whatsoever. The class D technology has advanced to much over the past few years that they are simply amazing.

Very interesting. Are you using the upgraded 48V power supply or the standard 32V one?