Who stole the Dynamics?
- Thread starter Bigerik
- Start date
Spasticteapot
Nuclear Liberal
I'm guessing that you're suffering from power compression - at high volume, the combination of heat increasing voice coil impedance and increased suspension resistance will reduce the excursion of your woofer.
There are two solutions for this: Larger woofers, or more Xmax. Perhaps a small 3-way with an 8" woofer is in order? A Soundsplinter/TC Sounds 8" with a Peerless HDS 5" midrange and HDS tweeter will give you a highly efficient 3-way with 18mm of Xmax.
Alternately, try a dipole sub.
There are two solutions for this: Larger woofers, or more Xmax. Perhaps a small 3-way with an 8" woofer is in order? A Soundsplinter/TC Sounds 8" with a Peerless HDS 5" midrange and HDS tweeter will give you a highly efficient 3-way with 18mm of Xmax.
Alternately, try a dipole sub.
dogscanskate
Super Member
Have you exhausted all possibilities? There could be other issues at fault. Speaker placement for one, how close are they to the rear wall? Usually, in a small room, you can have the rear wall reinforce the bass.You may find this weird but I feel that feedback in a system causes problems very similar to "compression" in vinyl mastering. I see so many systems placed between the speakers which to me is kind of like being in "no man's land", not the ideal place to set-up the gear. It looks good and often times ruins imaging and the gear is prone to "feedback" due to close proximity.
If you have your deck placed on a heavy/massive support, it too could kill the dynamics as the support is a nice bass trap. Otoh, it may be the best possible solution too.
As silly as this may sound, you can get some dynamics back at a lower cost than changing speakers. Manufacturers don't all supply the best chassis/feet/power cord for their gear, for many it's just something they add to the component without ever listening seriously to it. If you have the chance, you can try products like Black Diamond Racing feet or dh cones from golden sound to replace the shoddy feet supplied with the majority of the gear supplied. It's far cheaper than new speakers and in most cases, a serious upgrade musically. This is stuff that I've done with my gear and it works. If you have a power conditioner, it too may kill the dynamics. Otoh, it could also improve your system.
Before giving up on speakers (unless you don't like them), you can try fine tuning your gear to see if you cannot improve it at little or no cost.
If you have your deck placed on a heavy/massive support, it too could kill the dynamics as the support is a nice bass trap. Otoh, it may be the best possible solution too.
As silly as this may sound, you can get some dynamics back at a lower cost than changing speakers. Manufacturers don't all supply the best chassis/feet/power cord for their gear, for many it's just something they add to the component without ever listening seriously to it. If you have the chance, you can try products like Black Diamond Racing feet or dh cones from golden sound to replace the shoddy feet supplied with the majority of the gear supplied. It's far cheaper than new speakers and in most cases, a serious upgrade musically. This is stuff that I've done with my gear and it works. If you have a power conditioner, it too may kill the dynamics. Otoh, it could also improve your system.
Before giving up on speakers (unless you don't like them), you can try fine tuning your gear to see if you cannot improve it at little or no cost.
Just like in engines, there is no replacement for displacement.
Ya, sure, in a car, you can turbo charge a lil' engine and get a lot of power out of it, but you pay the price in reliability and width of powerband. In audio, you can squeeze a lot of volume out of a 6", at the price of frequency range and distortion.
The best way to get big power in an engine is larger displacement, likewise in audio, if you are looking for large quantities of low end, the best way to do it is to start with a large driver.
Ya, sure, in a car, you can turbo charge a lil' engine and get a lot of power out of it, but you pay the price in reliability and width of powerband. In audio, you can squeeze a lot of volume out of a 6", at the price of frequency range and distortion.
The best way to get big power in an engine is larger displacement, likewise in audio, if you are looking for large quantities of low end, the best way to do it is to start with a large driver.
Fast_Eddie
Upper-middle fi
Well, let me first say you play in a league that's better than my gear.
Having said that, I'm listening to B&W 602s. I think they're actually quite dynamic. They're bigger than what you have, but still small monitors. They have quite respectable bass, but nothing that is going to scare the neighbors. I use them with a sub, but at night (like now) I flip it off and really enjoy them almost as much.
Take care,
Ed
Having said that, I'm listening to B&W 602s. I think they're actually quite dynamic. They're bigger than what you have, but still small monitors. They have quite respectable bass, but nothing that is going to scare the neighbors. I use them with a sub, but at night (like now) I flip it off and really enjoy them almost as much.
Take care,
Ed
I've heard that the 602's are supposed to be real nice, but I don't know for sure that I have ever heard a pair. Another thing to add to the audio to do list.
And I don't know that I would say that my gear is better. I will grant you likely it was more expensive when new, but that don't always equal better....
johnda
Addicted Member
I've always felt that the best dynamics came from large efficient speakers, one of my favorites for this was the Altec Valencia. They just had this great range to cover violin sonatas combined with heavy orchestral crescendos. All of my Acoustic suspension and aperiodic speakers, although having excellent highs and bass performance, just couldn't match the ability to blossom freely. But, of course, the problem here is space. You just can't cram Valencias in a small room. You could try, but the room dimensions would probably give you standing waves and null points all over the place.
I've just gotten this system: monitor speakers and a powered subwoofer.
The models I got were the Polk Monitor 30's and the Polk PSW10 subwoofer, for my small 12x14x8 listening room. The room has a wall to wall rug, the control cabinet, a facing futon couch facing the system and a dressing cabinet on the side wall, so a guest could use it as a guest bedroom. The couch and the rug provide damping to keep those standing waves down.
I'm using my Kenwood KR6600 vintage 60 watt/channel receiver by using the pre-out,main-in jacks to supply the audio to the powered (50 watts) subwoofer. The speakers are hooked normally to the receiver, and get 60 watts/rms each(if you crank it high enough).
FM out here sucks, so I'll use CD, Vinyl or internet audio as my source.
Since I am recuperating from a serious illness AKA "Almost dying" I had to wait for my son-in-law to come out to help shove things around, so yesterday was the first day I was able to hear the system operate. I set the woofer to cross over at 80 Hz, the lowest setting, and gave it moderate volume. Vinyl, George Gershwin's Manhattan Serenade via Dual CS-501.
My first response was "JESUS!" I was really blown away by the sound I got in that room. Beeutiful! The only problem was once in awhile a small click was heard from the old album. It seemed to have effortless dynamic range.
I understand that you need to play and tweak the system by fiddling with the woofer volume settings to get the best balance, and I might add some volume to the sub today and see how it does, but the Monitor 30's made a great team with the PSW10 woofer. I could not detect the crossover point by hearing a bloom or dropout, so I guess the 80Hz is a good spot. The Monitor 30's are rated to go to 65 Hz cleanly and they have a great musical sound. The overall effect was a seamless crystal clear image without harshness, that you could easily crank up enough to blow yourself out of the room.
I'm not pushing the Polks, everybody has their own tastes, but I do feel a good subwoofer, monitor speaker system can be the way to go when you don't have the room for a larger system. BTW I am strictly a two channel man. Always have been and always will be.
Good luck!
I've just gotten this system: monitor speakers and a powered subwoofer.
The models I got were the Polk Monitor 30's and the Polk PSW10 subwoofer, for my small 12x14x8 listening room. The room has a wall to wall rug, the control cabinet, a facing futon couch facing the system and a dressing cabinet on the side wall, so a guest could use it as a guest bedroom. The couch and the rug provide damping to keep those standing waves down.
I'm using my Kenwood KR6600 vintage 60 watt/channel receiver by using the pre-out,main-in jacks to supply the audio to the powered (50 watts) subwoofer. The speakers are hooked normally to the receiver, and get 60 watts/rms each(if you crank it high enough).
FM out here sucks, so I'll use CD, Vinyl or internet audio as my source.
Since I am recuperating from a serious illness AKA "Almost dying" I had to wait for my son-in-law to come out to help shove things around, so yesterday was the first day I was able to hear the system operate. I set the woofer to cross over at 80 Hz, the lowest setting, and gave it moderate volume. Vinyl, George Gershwin's Manhattan Serenade via Dual CS-501.
My first response was "JESUS!" I was really blown away by the sound I got in that room. Beeutiful! The only problem was once in awhile a small click was heard from the old album. It seemed to have effortless dynamic range.
I understand that you need to play and tweak the system by fiddling with the woofer volume settings to get the best balance, and I might add some volume to the sub today and see how it does, but the Monitor 30's made a great team with the PSW10 woofer. I could not detect the crossover point by hearing a bloom or dropout, so I guess the 80Hz is a good spot. The Monitor 30's are rated to go to 65 Hz cleanly and they have a great musical sound. The overall effect was a seamless crystal clear image without harshness, that you could easily crank up enough to blow yourself out of the room.
I'm not pushing the Polks, everybody has their own tastes, but I do feel a good subwoofer, monitor speaker system can be the way to go when you don't have the room for a larger system. BTW I am strictly a two channel man. Always have been and always will be.
Good luck!
240sx4u
Lunatic Member
Erik, if you ever get the opportunity check out a set of mordaunt-short performance series. They use a pair of 6" or 8". They are small floorstanders. I have an older pair of performance 860s. I am VERY sensitive to harsh highs with my tinnitus and they work well for me.
Just a suggestion, you may see a pair in canada... they are downright rare around here.
Small floorstander is my thought though.
Evan
BTW; totally agree with the room treatment information.
Just a suggestion, you may see a pair in canada... they are downright rare around here.
Small floorstander is my thought though.
Evan
BTW; totally agree with the room treatment information.
Spasticteapot
Nuclear Liberal
I hate that old adage.
There is one way to get absolutely thunderous SPL out of a 6" driver - a front-loaded horn. Although building a good one is quite tricky, 105db/1w is quite possible - you'll hardly be wanting for volume.
Maybe it's worth a shot giving this a try. I know it goes against what you've been trying to accomplish so far, but it may work to a degree -- those speakers do look quite nice.
I feel your pain -- when I bacame an apartment dweller, I tried smaller speakers as well, but just couldn't make the adjustment; nice sound, but 'something' lacking. Fortunately, I don't have one who must be obeyed, so I managed to make some KEF 105s fit in to my space; less than ideal placement, but the 'something' sure came back. :thmbsp:
Made certain that when I did move, the building was a concrete one; as long as I'm not stupid about it, I can seal up my glass cube and let it rip without fear of an angry mob appearing on my doorstep. Is your building wood or concrete? Perhaps your fears about the low bass traveling are overstated -- have you talked with any of your neighbors?
Won't be a sky dweller forever, so I still have a nice stash of large speakers that I'm not even trying to fit in here. The day will come soon enough when I can unleash some of those big old beautiful Altecs -- the 14s are just too damn wide to fit in here and look good at the same time.
Good luck on your quest -- hope you find a solution to your problem sometime soon!
whoaru99
Epic Member
Gotta agree with those that indicate displacement is the issue.
I have a nice set of smaller monitor speakers (7" or 8" woofers) that sound absolutely fabulous, but they don't have a lot of punch. Punch is moving air and that takes displacement. A couple of (relatively) small drivers won't create much punch.
Of course, "much" is somewhat relative to your experience.
I have a nice set of smaller monitor speakers (7" or 8" woofers) that sound absolutely fabulous, but they don't have a lot of punch. Punch is moving air and that takes displacement. A couple of (relatively) small drivers won't create much punch.
Of course, "much" is somewhat relative to your experience.
rjohn
Active Member
I don't have that album so I can't comment on how it would sound with my speakers but I can say I really like my Dahlquist DQM5s. They're not large and they're on stands. They are incredibly clean sounding in both the upper and bass ranges. I have other larger speakers (Altec/Lansing, Advent, etc) and I think these Dahlquists blow them all away at any volume.
kbott
Addicted Member
and I have Dahlquist DQM-7's a ported 12" D x 13" W x 24" H three way. incredibly ugly but really, really nice sounding. a nice looking pair was unbid on the bay at $200 opening a week or so ago.
cableguy
In Twang We Trust
I guess I might be the wrong person to argue objectively about small vs large drivers considering my mids are 15" in my upcoming project...
:jawdrop:
