Why is this hard?
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/4312A ts.pdf
Build a pair of subs with 2213H woofers.... :yes:
Who stole the Dynamics?
- Thread starter Bigerik
- Start date
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/4312A ts.pdf
Build a pair of subs with 2213H woofers.... :yes:
MOPAR3
Super Member
I have 4410A's in my smallish room. With the 10" woofers they provide a suprising punch they reproduce drums very well. Bass is not all that low 45hz or so. Metal dome maybe considered harsh by some but I find it smooth and can listen all day. I'm thinking that if you get the dynamics your after your neighbors are gonna hear it. I can't seem to fill my room with out filling the whole house!!!!
wineslob
Wiping out white van
Wrong.
Iv'e got some DIYs that would surprise the hell out of you, it's all in the drivers. (they are a 6" 2 way) No, they don't do bass, but from 50 hz up they are amazing.
Call me confused, but aren't we talking about two different things? "Dynamics" cover the entire range, "punch" I associate with bass.
I feel your pain. I had NHT SuperOnes in an apartment, and they had no dynamics whatsoever. Now I have 90lb speakers, and don't have a dynamics problem anymore.
I have smaller speakers, though, up in the bedroom area of my loft so it is sort of like a 'room', the arched ceiling being the walls. I run a smallish pair of Rega floor standers up there, and don't feel the need for a sub at all. They are very dynamic speakers, have a very small footprint, and are only a two way with maybe a 6" driver and Morel tweeter. They sound quite a bit better than most of my vintage collection, and most of them have larger drivers than the Regas. Actually, all of them do. The Regas didn't do so great in the large room, but in this smaller area they are stunning. The new line of Rega speakers is even smaller, but I was told by a dealer that they had more bass than the previous generation (which I have). I didn't get a chance to hear them, so who knows...but they are quite small until you get very far up the line. But, they are pricey.
With the exception of the NHTs, I have had luck with a smaller sub and two-way standmounted speakers. But the only way I was ever happy with it was when I used the speaker level crossover in the sub instead of running a separate line level to it. I ran little PSB Alphas like this, and it was a very nice sounding system. It didn't have the punch of my big speakers, but it was much much better than the PSBs by themselves. They didn't even sound like the same speakers, though you'd be hard pressed to have known a sub was playing if you didn't see it.
Even my big Dahlquists lose dynamics with the wrong amplification. I switched in an 80wpc Heybrook amplifier the other day...tonally, it was better than my day to day amp, but there were NO dynamics anymore. It seemed to be that the amp just lacked headroom.
Also, I've been running around town lately listening to $3000-$5000 speakers for the heck of it, and no longer believe that the only way to get great bass and dynamics is a huge drivers. But...for that kind of money, I could think of many other things I want.
Good luck. I don't know if any of that rambling helps, but I can't believe that you'd have to go all the way up to Altecs to get dynamics.
I have smaller speakers, though, up in the bedroom area of my loft so it is sort of like a 'room', the arched ceiling being the walls. I run a smallish pair of Rega floor standers up there, and don't feel the need for a sub at all. They are very dynamic speakers, have a very small footprint, and are only a two way with maybe a 6" driver and Morel tweeter. They sound quite a bit better than most of my vintage collection, and most of them have larger drivers than the Regas. Actually, all of them do. The Regas didn't do so great in the large room, but in this smaller area they are stunning. The new line of Rega speakers is even smaller, but I was told by a dealer that they had more bass than the previous generation (which I have). I didn't get a chance to hear them, so who knows...but they are quite small until you get very far up the line. But, they are pricey.
With the exception of the NHTs, I have had luck with a smaller sub and two-way standmounted speakers. But the only way I was ever happy with it was when I used the speaker level crossover in the sub instead of running a separate line level to it. I ran little PSB Alphas like this, and it was a very nice sounding system. It didn't have the punch of my big speakers, but it was much much better than the PSBs by themselves. They didn't even sound like the same speakers, though you'd be hard pressed to have known a sub was playing if you didn't see it.
Even my big Dahlquists lose dynamics with the wrong amplification. I switched in an 80wpc Heybrook amplifier the other day...tonally, it was better than my day to day amp, but there were NO dynamics anymore. It seemed to be that the amp just lacked headroom.
Also, I've been running around town lately listening to $3000-$5000 speakers for the heck of it, and no longer believe that the only way to get great bass and dynamics is a huge drivers. But...for that kind of money, I could think of many other things I want.
Good luck. I don't know if any of that rambling helps, but I can't believe that you'd have to go all the way up to Altecs to get dynamics.
dnewma04
The Healer
In my experience, a requirement of a dynamic speaker is a lack of compression in the motor. There are ways to reduce compression through good heatsinking and more effectively, through high sensitivity drivers. High sensitivity comes at the expense of deep bass or small cabinets. Botrytis is pretty well dead on with his observations. If you don't mind cutting off an octave or two and adding a subwoofer, small speakers can become candidates, but they are the exception to the rule by a huge margin.
What drivers are you using in your speakers?
wineslob
Wiping out white van
Dynaudio Esotec D260's (tweets) and Morel HU 621 woofers. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-072
I don't screw around. :yes:
dnewma04
The Healer
You call that a woofer? Here is my midrange next to Zilch's favorite LE14....
I will have two of these per speaker in an MTM arrangement with some, undecided to this point, horn.
Nice combo of components in your speakers, the D260s are nice. Morel mids haven't done much for me in the past, but i sure liked the MDT33 tweeter and some of their budget tweeters are top notch.
I've dealt with Dynaudio (never been impressed) and Morel (only impressed sometimes) drivers, MANY times over the last three decades.
And I will say- there's NO WAY they will be able to do the dynamic "quick slam" of something like a JBL 2123 10" mid or EV 15B woofer, with a good horn. Not to mention top-shelf stuff like Unity drivers, Radians, ATCs and the like.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for efficiency. I don't care how much you flog a low-efficiency woofer... how many heat sinks you throw on it... how much voice coil you jam into it- it's NEVER going to do the "effortless" thing like a good high-efficiency driver in the right application.
It's not only about compression- it's about MASS, and the tendency for mass to "store energy", and re-release it at the WRONG time. Less mass = higher efficiency = more accurate transients...
ONLY on the deepest bass (where speed isn't an issue, and you can "damp away" the storage artifacts satisfactorily) can lower-efficiency drivers cope, IME. But, if the driver has to do above 100 Hz... forgeddaboutit... it ain't happenin'...
But, you guys with the mini monitors can do what you please... I'm not going to hold a gun to your head or anything like that. That said, you're welcome to wake up and see reality, any time you like...
Regards,
Gordon.
And I will say- there's NO WAY they will be able to do the dynamic "quick slam" of something like a JBL 2123 10" mid or EV 15B woofer, with a good horn. Not to mention top-shelf stuff like Unity drivers, Radians, ATCs and the like.
There is NO SUBSTITUTE for efficiency. I don't care how much you flog a low-efficiency woofer... how many heat sinks you throw on it... how much voice coil you jam into it- it's NEVER going to do the "effortless" thing like a good high-efficiency driver in the right application.
It's not only about compression- it's about MASS, and the tendency for mass to "store energy", and re-release it at the WRONG time. Less mass = higher efficiency = more accurate transients...
ONLY on the deepest bass (where speed isn't an issue, and you can "damp away" the storage artifacts satisfactorily) can lower-efficiency drivers cope, IME. But, if the driver has to do above 100 Hz... forgeddaboutit... it ain't happenin'...
But, you guys with the mini monitors can do what you please... I'm not going to hold a gun to your head or anything like that. That said, you're welcome to wake up and see reality, any time you like...
Regards,
Gordon.
dnewma04
The Healer
Mass does have a direct correlation with efficiency, but not so much with transients. The ability to respond quickly to changes in the electrical signal is the product of low inductance.
Besides, I don't think wineslob is comparing his satellite type speakers with those of a studio monitor or speakers with pro drivers. I think he is just saying that not all small diameter speakers are as dynamically challenged as most.
Besides, I don't think wineslob is comparing his satellite type speakers with those of a studio monitor or speakers with pro drivers. I think he is just saying that not all small diameter speakers are as dynamically challenged as most.
LE14H, no less. :thmbsp:
You've got half a killer EconoWave there, Dave. :yes:
[Get ON with it....
: ]
Well, you COULD donate them to ZilchLab for, uhmm, "Research," I guess.Let me get this straight. are you trying to say that LE14H woofers are good?
[OH, the PHILANTHROPY of it...!
: ]
Susurus
Resolution:6.62×10^-34
Example of dynamics in a small sealed box = Heresy's - K22 K55 K77 drivers. Bass is lacking a few octaves.
Oh well, what can ya do. Don't have any horn-loaded bass cabs (yet).
Can fit 2 Heresy's inside my SpeakerLab7's. They go lower than the Bozaks but I still think the SL7's could use more internal volume. They are like 97 db/1w, highest I've got in sealed cabs. 102 on Klipsch RF-7's but they have dual exhausts.
For meduim efficient ( 94 db/1w? ) and large sealed-(ish) cab volume, my trusty Bozak Symphonies... I say 'ish' because the tweeter array mounts leak. Gotta make a subenclosure.
Oh well, what can ya do. Don't have any horn-loaded bass cabs (yet).
Can fit 2 Heresy's inside my SpeakerLab7's. They go lower than the Bozaks but I still think the SL7's could use more internal volume. They are like 97 db/1w, highest I've got in sealed cabs. 102 on Klipsch RF-7's but they have dual exhausts.
For meduim efficient ( 94 db/1w? ) and large sealed-(ish) cab volume, my trusty Bozak Symphonies... I say 'ish' because the tweeter array mounts leak. Gotta make a subenclosure.
Attachments
Uh, I think with the addition of those Lambdas he can throw the "econo" out the window.
[Get ON with it....
Seconded. I want to hear those.
Ray
legalalien
Well-Known Member
Is it dynamics you're after or bass? My opinion is for a small room like yours you don't want a sub as that will just muddy up the sound even more, instead something like the Horneshoppe horn single driver speaker might just be your ticket. Also that you use tubes this type of speaker will work very well with tubes, Omega speakers also has some nice offerings that could work in your setup. These single driver systems are known for being very immediate and dymamic sounding if a little light in the bass, but in your smaller room this should not be an issue.
dnewma04
The Healer
I would submit that using a proper subwoofer system (especially in small rooms) is a solution to correct not cause muddy bass. Subwoofers get a bad rap because of almost a universal misuse of them. Small rooms beg for controlled directivity and multiple subs to acheive the best performance you can get.