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Why are chip amps often described as having "tube sound"? What are the similarities between them??

Kreshna

Kreshna

...but I have to know.
Alright, I often read chip amps being described as having sound similar to that of tube amps. Why? Are there really similar characteristics between chip amplifiers and tube amplifiers? And if there are, what are they?

This one is an example:
I have -- deliberately I might add -- refrained from calling the Patek SE tube-sounding. It's not. A quick detour into DeHavilland 845 or Canary Audio 300B land would show you quickly if you doubted. They're softer, less articulate.
Still, there are distinct traits that bear an uncanny resemblance - treble elegance, performer mass and, related to the latter, a fetching degree of warmth. What's more solid-statish is the exceptional speed (unless we turned to something choice as Roger Hebert's Wyetech Labs paralleled 300B Sapphires for one example I have personal experience with).​

So, while the reviewer refrained from calling Patek SE tube-sounding, he admitted there are resemblances between Patek SE and tube amps, which are treble elegance, performer mass, and warmth.


An article about DIY TK2050 Tripath amp:
What about the sound quality? It exceeds my expectation! It is powerful yet has 50-60% of the warmth and mellowness from a tube amplifier. I can't complain with so less effort and money being put into this little project. I believe my friend should be very happy this DIY audio project.​

So, Tripath TK2050 is described as haviing 50%-60% of warmth and mellowness of a tube amp.


Now it's Hypex UcD:
As a matter of fact the presentation of sound is quite similar to a good class A amplifier or a single ended triode unit. Something - so to say - very different from the T-Amp, that I'll use as a reference, just because it is another widely known example of new Class-D technology amplifier.
The sound is clear, rather transparent, precise, detailed, with that specific "lucid" presentation typical of triode units.
Low frequencies are well present and controlled, even though perhaps not as much as you would expect from an amplifer with a damping factor of 400. The entire bass range is definitely round and full, pleasant and effective, exactly as it happens with many tubed amp systems. ​

While Hypex UcD is described as 'very different from the T-Amp', it's also described as having sound similar to single ended triode unit. Yup, Hypex UcD 180 sounds similar to a SET amp. Well at least according to the reviewer.

Tripath: Death Knell for the Vacuum Tube:
I just got my Griffin PowerWave and after listening for three hours I am still slack-jawed at what I'm hearing: a good EL 34 amp with balls.
Despite the cheesy connectors and such, this little $100 miracle gives you 85 to 90 percent of a good tube amp. The detail, focus, speed, and imaging may not be the Nth degree like good tube designs but it is CLOSE. More importantly, the PowerWave has an astonishing tube-like palpablity not heard out of most solid state designs. And, this I'm saying about a cheese box that NEVER gets warm (except for that annoying blue light on top.)​

Another chip amp described as having 85% to 90% of sound quality of a good tube amp. In fact, the reviewer said 'a good EL 34 amp with balls'.

I also noticed that most people drive full range single-driver loudspeakers using either SET tube amp (but not push-pull tube amp) or chip amp (either Tripath or gainclone). I have never read about people driving full range single-driver loudspeakers using traditional class A/B amp.

Why? Why is that? What are the characteristics that both tube amps and chip amps have, but class A/B amps don't have?
 
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Frank Sol said:
The 'problem' will be SOUNDS like a tube

Safe to say... Most people dont hear the same and if they do their listening environments are different
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Well, that too. However, chip amps are more often described as "sounds like tube amp" than ordinary class A/B amp (unless we're talking about vintage class A/B amp like Sansui AU-555).

Also, most people drive full range single-driver loudspeakers using either set tube amp or chip amp, but not ordinary class A/B amp. I have never read about someone driving their full rangers using NAD C325BEE, for example.

Why is that?
 
I, for one, would love someone to do indepth research into both the claims, and the reasons for the claims.

What exactly 'is' tube sound? Are we talking about the claimed pleasing harmonics of a tube being overdriven?

not trolling, genuinely interested.
 
jazzmans said:
I, for one, would love someone to do indepth research into both the claims, and the reasons for the claims.

What exactly 'is' tube sound? Are we talking about the claimed pleasing harmonics of a tube being overdriven?

not trolling, genuinely interested.
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Indeed. However, regardless of what exactly is 'tube sound', fact remains that chip amps are very often described as having 'tube sound', while traditional class A/B amp aren't. And that really stirs my curiosity.


Frank Sol said:
Not 100% sure why or even 70%

But I do agree with your observations... I feel like my TPA 3116 amps sound remarkably like small tube amps and I enjoy running them into Single Full Range Drivers

I'm guilty :biggrin:

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...for-a-3000-4000-sounding-tube-pre-amp.863741/
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I see.

Could you describe the sound in more details? Is it warm? Is it airy? And what driver model are you using? And have you tried to drive it using traditional class A/B amp? And if that's the case, how does it sound?
 
Anyway, one of the reasons I wrote this thread is because I need to know whether a Hifimediy T3 Mono TK2050 chip amplifier would drive B&W DM302 as good as Sansui AU-7900 does.

Kreshna-Aryaguna-Nurzaman-Sansui-AU-7900.jpg

The best amplifier to drive B&W DM302 by far.

B&W DM302s are quite a difficult load, their impedance drops to 3 ohms from 200 Hz to 300 Hz, and it seems they need sufficiently powerful amplifier to sing. When driven by Sansui A-40 and Yamaha RX-V663, which seem to be insufficiently powerful, stereo imaging suffers. The speakers doesn't disappear very well, and the sound comes from each loudspeaker instead of the surrounding air.

  1. When driven by Rotel RB-985, which is quite a powerful amplifier, the DM302s really disappear, great soundstage and stereo imaging. Alas, the combo does not sound organic nor warm.
  2. When driven by Sansui AU-7900, B&W DM302 also disappear very well, great soundstage and stereo imaging and such. However, the combo sound very organic, very warm. At first, I was afraid I might be bored by such laid back sound. However, I have begun to appreciate such warm, organic, totally non-fatiguing sound, that I began to be addicted (and my baby daughter seems to enjoy the sound as well). In fact, I think Sansui AU-7900 and B&W DM302 is a more pleasing combo than Sansui AU-7900 and JBL L20Ts, although the latter is perhaps more accurate-sounding.

So it seems Sansui AU-7900 has the necessary power to drive the DM302, while still sounding organic. And I have read opinions where the AU-7900 (and many Sansuis of the same era) is described as tube-like. So it seems, in order to drive the DM302 properly, I would need an amplifier which is sufficiently powerful, yet tube-sounding.

Now, back to the Tripath. Tripath amps are probably associated with lower power. However, the T3 mono TK2050 is rated 150 watts at 8 ohms and 300 watts at 4 ohms, indicating sufficiently high current amplifier to drive difficult loads like B&W DM302. Also, TK2050 has been described as tube-sounding, so the resultant sound might be very organic and warm --probably the combo will sound like Sansui AU-7900/B&W DM302 combo.

So, would TK2050 be a good amplifier to drive B&W DM302? Perhaps as good as Sansui AU-7900?

One might ask, why not just use the Sansui? Well I've been always interested in 5.1 music, either using Involve Audio Surround Master or one of those Fosgate DSM modules, and that's why I need three more amplifier channels.
 
Kreshna said:
Indeed. However, regardless of what exactly is 'tube sound', fact remains that chip amps are very often described as having 'tube sound', while traditional class A/B amp aren't. And that really stirs my curiosity.
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I suspect nothing more than some fancy marketing hype.

I've mentioned the following a number of times before but it bears repeating here: When Sydney Corderman (McIntosh chief amplifier designer of 50 years who has many of both tube and SS models to his credit) was asked the question, which is better- tube or solid state? After a pause, he responded, "If they are designed properly, they should sound the same!"

In my own case after comparing tube and SS (McIntosh) models myself, I'm inclined to agree with Sydney - although I might have reported differently when I listened to my first major tube purchase for the first time...
 
I think there may simply be a minor misunderstanding here. Rothwellaudio isn't saying chip amps are bad, only that they're technologically completely different from tube amplifiers. One is a miniature direct-coupled semiconductor IC-based transformerless Class D "switching" amp; the other is a vacuum-thermionic, often hand-wired, discrete, often transformer-based, often capacitor-coupled, Class A or Class A/B amp. Technically, they're opposites -- to the extent that technologies can be opposites of each other. They can both sound great or terrible depending entirely on implementation.

However, it is true that "tube-like", to the non-audiophile world, is simply a vague synonym for "good". It's as meaningless as "hi fi", and intended only to evoke feel-good, gotta-buy-it reactions in the general public. I think most audiophiles recognize that good amplification is neither tube-like nor transistor-like, because you shouldn't be hearing the tubes/transistors, you should be hearing the source.
 
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I have made no comment about what chip amps sound like and will make no further comment on the subject due to one forum member's determination to take offence and start a fight. I shall leave it to other forum members to speculate as to why "chip amps are often described as as having sound similar to that of tube amps". I have offered my opinion and I don't think it needs any further clarification.
 
rothwellaudio said:
I have made no comment about what chip amps sound like and will make no further comment on the subject due to one forum member's determination to take offence and start a fight. I shall leave it to other forum members to speculate as to why "chip amps are often described as as having sound similar to that of tube amps". I have offered my opinion and I don't think it needs any further clarification.
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Just maybe , you know out of the clear blue sky , some chip amps DO IN FACT SOUND TUBE LIKE

And as I knew (almost 90%) you have never heard a chip amp + single driver setup

Now people will know why I said "typical" -- this happens all the time

I'm finished with you too

Have a great day
 
62caddy said:
When Sydney Corderman (McIntosh chief amplifier designer of 50 years who has many of both tube and SS models to his credit) was asked the question, which is better- tube or solid state? After a pause, he responded, "If they are designed properly, they should sound the same!"
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I agree, but you only find that at the high end when SS designers don't rely upon using corrective feedback as a crutch to get good specs. Forget any design using cheap op amps as they require heroic amounts of correction. Think companies like Ayre and Pass Labs.

The TPA3116 is a switcher and I've found some like the Hypex Ncore amp used in the garage system can have very good midrange response. They fail, however, at the top to these ears delivering the natural harmonic extension and air you find with the best linear amps.
 
Isn’t my Mitsubishi Da-R25 built in 1984, a chip amp? It has STK chips. I bought it new as a a youngster so it’s the sound I like regardless if it’s good or bad. I also own a few tube amps and love them too. The point is, everything is subjective.
 
Dot Heton said:
Isn’t my Mitsubishi Da-R25 built in 1984, a chip amp? It has STK chips.
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"Chip amp" generally refers to Class D "switching" amp integrated circuits made by TriPath and Texas Instruments (formerly National Semiconductor).

The STK chips are not single-chip integrated circuits but thick-film hybrids, and they're Class AB. They're not usually called chip amps, and they're constructed differently and work differently from what's usually called a "chip amp".
 
I cleaned up this, and ask everyone to play nice please.
Thanks,
Jim
 
A lot of how an amp sounds has to do with the complexity of the load the speaker presents to the amplifier. If the amp has a fairly low damping factor whether tube or SS then the amps will react in a similar fashion. Both having higher forms of distortion and compromised signal to noise ratios will make them sound similar, too. But that said what some folks think are good sounding tube amps really turn me off with there high distortions and poor frequency responses driving complex loads. But as I have said before we all love certain forms of distortion. Be it to much bass, to many highs, rolled off highs, no bass below 50 Hz, high orders of even ordered distortions, over exaggerated dynamics or little dynamics, we all have distortion preferences. Sometimes I pull out some Columbia LP's and Telarc Cd's and listen to them just for the way the strings sound. There is a smoothness in both from the mics being pulled back to replicate sitting in a real concert hall without the mics being right on top or in tront of the performers, Thats a form of distortion. Or maybe I will listen to and Enoch light recording where he used RCA ribbons to capture brass sounds to take that edge off the brass that peaky condenser mics can add. Or maybe I want to listen to ballet music from a live performance with out the video so I can experience the sound coming from the Alligator pit instead of from on stage.
 
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