why are tube amps sporting such low RMS numbers?

[30hz MAGIC]

If you're really aiming for 140 dB SPL, you had better have some good hearing protection if you don't want to end up with noise-related hearing loss.

That's the same thing that turned Pete Townsend from the Who deaf, after 40 years of standing in front of full volume Marshall stacks, and the same thing that deafens carpenters who are around power tools all of the time.

OSHA sets a daily exposure limit of 15 minutes per day for a 115 dB SPL; NIOSH sets that level at 110 dB. You're aiming for a signal that's more than four times as loud.

You can wear hearing protection that will cut the level to your delicate ears by 20 dB, and still feel the thump in your chest and the kick in your butt, and save some hearing for future decades.

Or you can blow it all out now, and not have to worry about hearing the subtlties of a low-power tube amp in ten years.

Lolol. I'm from Illinois! Your a pussy around here if you don't hit 130db ATLEAST!!!
just the way it is around here.

 

[62caddy]

I would hit high 140's in DB's easy peasy.

At the rate you're going my friend, your days of hearing anything will be numbered very quickly, if not already.

Lolol. I'm from Illinois! Your a pussy around here if you don't hit 130db ATLEAST!!!
just the way it is around here.

I'm glad I don't live in Illinois then.

 

[davidro]

Our audio dreams are such difference between eachothers. Your chasing reality, precision, accuracy. I'm chasing artificial, imagination, a lie.

I want my experience to be over the top and unrealistic.
Colors to some are only colors until there's too many of them, only then are they beautiful.
To others they are a nightmare, but not to me.

Respect, brother

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk 2

 

[JBL GUY]

30hz MAGIC understand that I am not the SPL police, but as mentioned previously in this thread, sound levels such as you mention can result in permanent hearing damage in a very short time.

"Your a pussy around here if you don't hit 130db ATLEAST!!!"

I am not too sure about this statement. I would hope that most would be informed enough to understand the risk to their hearing, although this may not be the case.

The OSHA recommendations are based on averages and some believe that they may be too lenient.


Because I am a hard numbers, engineering type, I too am interested in your answers to bowtie427ss's questions and I would like to if I may, add an additional question. At what distance from the speaker(s) were your measurements taken?

BTW, I also have a background in audiology.

Again for 30hz MAGIC and those following this thread, I am not the SPL police, but it has been my experience that more that just a few do not understand the risk to their hearing that exposure to elevated sound pressure levels may have.

 

[Poultrygeist]

"What this country needs is a really good five watt amplifier" - Paul Klipsch

 

[30hz MAGIC]

30hz MAGIC understand that I am not the SPL police, but as mentioned previously in this thread, sound levels such as you mention can result in permanent hearing damage in a very short time.

"Your a pussy around here if you don't hit 130db ATLEAST!!!"

I am not too sure about this statement. I would hope that most would be informed enough to understand the risk to their hearing, although this may not be the case.

The OSHA recommendations are based on averages and some believe that they may be too lenient.


Because I am a hard numbers, engineering type, I too am interested in your answers to bowtie427ss's questions and I would like to if I may, add an additional question. At what distance from the speaker(s) were your measurements taken?

BTW, I also have a background in audiology.

Again for 30hz MAGIC and those following this thread, I am not the SPL police, but it has been my experience that more that just a few do not understand the risk to their hearing that exposure to elevated sound pressure levels may have.

Just the way we are brought up in illinois. Live for today, don't worry about tommorow.
When we are old and dead we can stop hearing things. For guys I hang with its just the way it is.

Honestly though I haven't done any readings, I'm pretty much basing my "guesstimate" DB readings on what it sounds like to hear around 140db in car. Believe me, I'm there!

Funny thing though, I rarely slam 2000 watts while I listen to anything. I have it, when I want it, but I rarely ever do.

My amp BTW is a Pyle 8000watt. I KNOW its not 8000watts, but I also know its above 2000watts

I'm purchased a db meter which goes to 130 max a week ago. Its in Atlanta now, so it will be here tommorow.
Should be exciting.

 

[johnr66]

You could have a powerful tube amp if you want. The modulation amplifier on the old WLW transmitter is basically an audio amplifier that modulates the supply voltage on the RF finals. This was a 500KW transmitter, so the AF amp had to be a decent fraction of the total power (say 300KW). It's output transformer (modulation) was something the size you would find in an electrical substation and weighed 35,000 lbs. Put it this way, the maximum power that could go into your house wouldn't even light it's filaments. Point being, you can have a powerful tube amp if you have the $$.

 

[Son-of-Vere]

Trying to make the thunderous bass you enjoy with tubes is just silly. SS all the way for massive bass.

But, for mids and highs, whole different thing.
My plan is to someday bi-amp my econowaved towers with a 400w or thereabouts SS amp for lows and a 3w ish SET amp for mid-highs. The compression driver's good for 108dB @ 1w, should just about work out.

This way you can have that SS cake and eat it from a tube.


I'd also like to commend you on your ability to create a s***storm here on AK, 30HZ. Kudos.
Listening to Tommy Dorsey right now on a 9w per channel 6BQ5 amp right now. That'll take ya back.

 

[30hz MAGIC]

Trying to make the thunderous bass you enjoy with tubes is just silly. SS all the way for massive bass.

But, for mids and highs, whole different thing.
My plan is to someday bi-amp my econowaved towers with a 400w or thereabouts SS amp for lows and a 3w ish SET amp for mid-highs. The compression driver's good for 108dB @ 1w, should just about work out.

This way you can have that SS cake and eat it from a tube.


I'd also like to commend you on your ability to create a s***storm here on AK, 30HZ. Kudos.
Listening to Tommy Dorsey right now on a 9w per channel 6BQ5 amp right now. That'll take ya back.

Nice! I'm commended for creating shitstorms!

Ill never let you down, guys!

 

[Reynolds531]

Just... For a second... Assuming 4500RMS cannot achieve above 140db range...
Kidding me?

It does require 10,000 times more power to produce 140 dB than it takes to produce a very loud 100 dB, assuming your speakers can maintain constant efficiency. so, it is quite unlikely that you can hit 140 dB.

I am not exaggerating. dB is a logarithmic scale, so 140 dB takes 10,000 times more power than 100 dB.

 

[30hz MAGIC]

You can make 140db with 2000RMS easy.
Actually, too easy.

I KNOW this.
Given this is in a car. Or most likely a van.
Pick your poison, there are plenty of YouTube videos of it.

Sundown SA-15 can do 150 on burp, 1000watts, my friend...

 

[Guest105]

Trying to make the thunderous bass you enjoy with tubes is just silly. SS all the way for massive bass.

But, for mids and highs, whole different thing.
My plan is to someday bi-amp my econowaved towers with a 400w or thereabouts SS amp for lows and a 3w ish SET amp for mid-highs. The compression driver's good for 108dB @ 1w, should just about work out.

This way you can have that SS cake and eat it from a tube.


I'd also like to commend you on your ability to create a s***storm here on AK, 30HZ. Kudos.
Listening to Tommy Dorsey right now on a 9w per channel 6BQ5 amp right now. That'll take ya back.

You must not follow many threads on AK if you think this one is a sh**storm!

To the OP....I assume that with your predilection for car stereo, your 8000 watt amp is a Pyle home unit? Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) know how they get away with not providing continuous RMS specs? I thought this was a requirement for home audio equipment?

 

[Ken Boyd]

I think it's safe to say that an IMAX theater does not play their audio system at 140 db. A more honest audio level would be in the mid 80's to near 90 db. Public safety and also public comfort is a consideration that would be taken quite seriously. Risk of instantaneous noise-induced hearing loss is 120 db. And long before they ever invented SS amps, tube amps was the standard for amplification in theaters.


The car audio groups love to compete with extreme db levels, but I think that is quite a different crowd than the audiophile crowd who's main concern is better quality.

 

[for_p1]

THX specification calls for 105 dB peak and 85 dB average at listening position. Considering that most speakers are in 88-91 dB/W/meter range and you likely sit in 10 feet away, you will need about 500W, and this does not count for compression in speakers.

 

[SuperjazzyJa]

A 35 watt amp, regardless of topology, will not be able to drive the same pair of speakers as loud or louder than a 100 watt amp. Watts are watts.

The person who made the post your refer to was mistaken.

That said, there is a lot more to how well an amplifier drives a particular pair of speakers than sheer output power.

Well, I haven't had a chance to compare tubes to ss, but it is commonly believed that tube amps are louder than ss. Only one person claimed that 35 tube was louder than 100 ss which was posted on AK somewhere.

 

[bowtie427ss]

My amp BTW is a Pyle 8000watt.

I gotta fold at this point.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Tube amplifiers were with rare exception lower powered. Back in the tube mono era, most loudspeakers capable of full range response were very efficient (90 db/1 watt) or higher and usually cornerhorn designs a la Klipschorn, Altec Lansing Voice Of The Theater, EV Georgian, JBL Hartsfield, and the Jensens. Pre-Stereo, a 30 watt amplifier was a large amplifier, and the few larger amplifiers rare and even more expensive. Amplifier power became larger with the advent of the acoustic suspension loudspeaker and Stereophonic sound. Until Dolby Stereo became mainstream in cinema use, the Altec Lansing Voice Of The Theater was the cinema loudspeaker, 20-30 watt tube amplifiers were capable of filling a cinema with plenty of volume with headroom to spare.

In 1956, remember that a McIntosh MC 30 power amplifier was $300, the C-8 preamplifier around $100. A McIntosh MC 60 was over $450 new. Equivalent to half the cost of a basic new automobile then for perspective. Figure in that cornerhorn being around $200 and change and a turntable of quality with a base and cartridge being another $130-$150, that HiFi was the cost of a new 1956 basic Ford or Chevrolet car.

 

[bowtie427ss]

Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) know how they get away with not providing continuous RMS specs? I thought this was a requirement for home audio equipment?

Just my WAG here.

First, it's marketed as "DJ equipment" for whatever that is worth, and maybe that's how they get around it right there.

Most stage and front of house equipment riders specifically preclude the use of junk brands like Pyle, Pyramid, Gemini, etc and bottom tier brands like Behringer, Alto, Mackie etc. So, i don't think the makers of true professional equipment consider the low enders to be a realistic threat in the marketplace.

I'm not sure the PILE amp could even be legally used in a USA venue, it does not have a rear panel mains fuse or circuit breaker.

If it really does sound good, and make halfway decent power, it's a shame that they don't represent it in more common and honest terms.

Ludicrous claims of 8000 watts output for 300 bucks new will, and should raise the brows of doubt for most folks.

 

[bowtie427ss]

Altec Lansing Voice Of The Theater was the cinema loudspeaker, 20-30 watt tube amplifiers were capable of filling a cinema with plenty of volume with headroom to spare.

Altec introduced the 287W in 1946. It puts out 250 watts of juicy 805 triode power. Technically, it is a booster amp as it needs to be driven with another amplifier.

Soon after the 287 came the 260 at 260 watts rms output, and was a true stand alone power amplifier needing only 1.2 volts of input signal for full rated output power.

Most of the large VOT systems, A4 and larger all used crossover networks designed to handle 200 watts continuous.

They(altec) had big watts early on, and they used them.

 

[30hz MAGIC]

You must not follow many threads on AK if you think this one is a sh**storm!

To the OP....I assume that with your predilection for car stereo, your 8000 watt amp is a Pyle home unit? Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) know how they get away with not providing continuous RMS specs? I thought this was a requirement for home audio equipment?

Well... Its pretty sketchy as always.
Based on price I can ball park RMS ratings in car audio.
For example, parts only come so cheap to manufacture so there's a roof in a price range for RMS power.
For $100 your usually dipping into 300-500RMS, $200 $800-1200Rms.
Unfortunately I haven't bought and installed enough home power amps to know.
If the home audio/PA amp game is at all the same, I suspect a no name, cheap Technical Pro, Pyle, Gemsound, Behringer, would beat a Crown amp to death for what you pay and how much power you get.

I'm guessing $100 150-200RMS WPC. $200 200-400RMS WPC. And above $300 you can get 1000RMS in a CHEAP Behringer or Pyle.