The rated power is probably 8000 W ILS -- If Lightning Strikes.
How do you know this? Have you measured it on a test load?
why are tube amps sporting such low RMS numbers?
- Thread starter 30hz MAGIC
- Start date
The rated power is probably 8000 W ILS -- If Lightning Strikes.
How do you know this? Have you measured it on a test load?
whoaru99
Epic Member
I don't know about commonly but it is at least occasionally said. False though, unless one or the other isn't an honest power rating.
RGA
Super Member
Unfortunately, watts have been misunderstood to equate to volume. They don't. But numbers are easy to sell. Sound Quality is not easy to sell because in mass market chains like Future Shop and Best Buy they don't have the space to dedicate to serious listening - nor do they want to spend the time convincing (educating) people. So a race for most watts began.
It is no different that cameras touting higher megapixel rates. A camera with an excellent lens/lens sensor with 4megapixels will beat a camera with 30 mega-pixels and an inferior lens/lens sensor. But numbers are easier to sell - A has more than B so A is better.
Volume is a function of SPL in bels. decibels (dB)
On the back of a speaker you will see the SPL as something like 87dB sensitive 1W/1Meter. The speaker will produce 87 decibels with just 1 watt at a distance of 1 meter (this is actually pretty loud)
Very loud is 97dB is very loud and 107dB would cause most people pain (and continuously would cause hearing damage.
Now watts do make some difference but not nearly as much as the quality of the power supplies (pound for pound better in good tube amplifiers).
Why?
Well it takes double the watts to get a 3dB increase in volume level. So a 100 watt amp will give you a 3dB increase in volume level over a 50 watt amp, but 3dB isn't that noticeable (Ie; not very audible). To actually notice a DOUBLING of perceived volume level it takes a 10dB increase.
So let's use the 87dB speaker
1 watt = 87dB
2 watts = 90dB (doubled the power to get the 3dB increase)
4 w = 93dB
8w = 96dB
16w = 99dB
32W = 101dB
64W = 104dB
128w = 107dB (most loudspeakers have a max watt rating and it is usually in the 100W - 200W range) and most speakers (especially small standmounts peak at 108db (so having more watts than the speaker can handle is worthless)
256w = 110dB
512w = 113dB
1024w = 116db
Now with these speakers and say the 10 watt amp you will get around 97dB-99dB (because most good amps can offer up peaks above their rated output. Again this is very loud - but in a big room you might want more - but the above speaker may have trouble regardless unless it can handle a lot of watts (and again most speakers can't).
But if you notice there is another way to achieve dB and it has nothing to do with the amplifier - that is Speaker Sensitivity.
If you have a 97db sensitive speaker you can redo the chart above and now with
1w = 97db
2W = 100dB
4w = 103db
8W = 106dB
16W = 109dB
With the speaker above you would need a 250 watt per channel amplifier to achieve the same volume as a 16 watt amplifier will put out with this 97dB speaker - but remember most speakers can't handle the 250 watts so the above speaker with the 250 watt amp will be blowing up. This 97dB speaker will barely be working hard and it will be pelting the volume at you.
Do it again with a 107dB sensitive speaker and
1W = 107db
2W = 110db. So with just 2 watts you are beating or matching the 97dB speaker with 16 watts and the 87dB speaker with 256 watts.
Yup a 2 watt amp putting out the same volume capability as any 256 watt amplifier. All depending on the loudspeakers.
Tube amplifiers - Particularly SET(Single Ended Triode) amplifiers offer a number of advantages. The mains one being class A operation, are linear (if SET) and have no negative feedback. Negative feedback is a kind of error correction - the problem is that the errors occur before the feback loop is engage and the errors get passed through to circuits many multiple of times. Measurements are reactionary and take the input after the feedback loop is engaged not before - so they look good on the graph (but the reality is masked.
There are a few good Solid State design out there that are also Single Ended topology. The longest selling integrated amplifier in the word - the Sugden A21a is ~20 watts class A no feedback amp and doesn't double into 4 ohm loads - indeed the power drops to around 12 watts. And it runs very hot.
So what you need to say to yourself - gee they've been selling this amplifier since 1967 and it always wins the blind level matched panel listening tests in the British press. (people choose the Sugden when the level is matched and no one is allowed to see what the amps look like) Cause if it looks ugly and has no features and it's hot and a bit pricey and only 20 watts - it has to have SOMETHING going for it right? Ahh Sound Quality.
And most of the guys under about 50 who own SETs began with Solid State. Most of the elite high end today is Single Ended Triode and various other low watt no feedback designs. Indeed even some of the top SS manufacturers when listeing blind have chosen low watt tube amplifiers over their own pricey SS amps. http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/
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whoaru99
Epic Member
And, the LFE channel is +10dB to that stated above.
So, more detail it goes like this...
The average levels for movies are recorded roughly -20dBFS, and reference level is 85dB. So, when the content of the movie soundtrack peaks at or near 0dBFS recorded level, the system should be able to respond accordingly; 85dB + 20dB = 105dB. And, again, +10dB for subs. Some say the sub requirement is actually understated because of the bass management redirecting low bass from other speakers to the sub in addition to the actual LFE content.
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Edriz
AK Member
This is exactly what I do want. To re-create a Whitesnake concert. I can do this with my Music Angel tube amp, rated at 40wpc UL and 70wpc Triode paired with my Klipsch Lascalas. But, I should ad here that I bet I have never broke the 10wpc mark. At that amount of power, the house is "ROCKING" off the foundation. ( I love it LIVE)
It is so important to match amps and speakers. More so, IMO, then any other components in you system.
30hz MAGIC
Creator of earthquakes!
Very true, if they actually came out with REAL RMS ratings it would surprise many I'm sure!
But they manufacture cheap and the name of the game is profit. What kind of business does not lie every now and then? Problem is peak power ratings are a constant lie. I hate guesstimating what I'm ACTUALLY getting when I buy a Behringer or Pyle.
But I know I cannot get anywhere near the same power per dollar anywhere else.
When i bought my Pyle I knew It was likely I was getting way more than if I bought a Crown or Peavey
Cheap amps sport more power, dude. Nothing wrong with my "junk" Pyle. It sends my 18's below the 30hz range with authority just like I want it to. It has the power I need without spending a fortune. It does EVERYTHING I want it to do. "junk"? How so? Things been operating EVERYDAY for a year and a half now. Seems like people who lable cheap brands junk only do it because they use peak power ratings! I swear if you knew the ACTUAL power of some these cheap amps. You would **** yourself.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I understand the point you're trying to make in this regard in this thread.
But, generally speaking, you don't actually get the watts if you don't have a good power supply. So, it's like many things where you don't get one without the other.
Watts do equal volume just as increase in sensitivity equals volume. +3dB power is the same as +3dB sensitivity. With power however, one must understand that you can't just keep adding +3dB indefinitely and expect an equivalent output increase. At some point either your speakers just plain melt down or you run into power compression enough that there's no further point.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Give us the time, open up your objectivity, and we'll put that fantasy to rest for you. You got what you paid for.
Spending the same money in the used market, with a little guidance, you would have Crown, Ashly, BGW, or Crest amplification, more power, far more reliability, and resale value close to what you paid years down the road. Careful buying in the used market will get you all your money's worth, and a bunch of goods that somebody ahead of you paid for.
30hz MAGIC
Creator of earthquakes!
Do you own my amp? How do you know ANYTHING about it? Assumptions here and there unless you own or have heard this specific Pyle...
I wanted NEW for a reason. Warranties speak for themselves. And actually had a BGW.
It was OK. Big massive black tank that weighed over 50lbs. Funny, that amp could barely power two 15's. Weak.
It was a BGW 750.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
The FTC stated specs, published laboratory test results, and history of developments and patented technologies tell me ALL i NEED to know about any amplifier before i take the time to audition or implement it into a home system, portable rig, or any other application..
How about sponsors? Got any sound contractors, recording engineers, or artists promoting the Pyle amplifiers?
Your amp has none of those.
How deep do you want to dig in this hole?
Most automotive amplifier power ratings range from grossly exaggerated to outright false.
Unlike home audio equipment, automotive equipment is exempt from the FTC rule for amplifier power rating requirements. What that means is while a device may produce x amount of watts into a given load, it may only be able to produce that power within a narrow frequency range, distort terribly or blow up - or all three when attempting to make the amount of power claimed.
Additionally, the manner in which multi channel HT amplifiers may be rated is also unclear.
Here's the deal: You need TWO systems. The full-bore rig you already have for movies, and then a tube setup for serious music. A Dynaco ST-70 (even fully rebuilt) is affordable @ around 35WPC and will be great with efficient speakers and no slouch with those that are less-efficient.
130dB? I think an old 707 without "hush kits" on those ol' turbojets would be in that neighborhood. And that's LOUD.
130dB? I think an old 707 without "hush kits" on those ol' turbojets would be in that neighborhood. And that's LOUD.
30hz MAGIC
Creator of earthquakes!
I've heard nothing but assumptions from you. Where's your lab test results on MY specific Pyle?
Oh yeah, by your definition, Beats should be some of the greatest headphones made, right? Look at all that promotion lolol.
Its set then! My amp is bad because Dr. Dre isn't sponsoring Pyle, ITS BAD NOW! Lolololol
What hole?
Son-of-Vere
Super Member
Well, I was thinkin' quantity over quality. Every time I see a post from 30hz, it usually has 4 or more pages within a day.
This certainly ain't the best one, but give it some time.
Oh, and bring up something about speaker wire.
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There is some music recorded like this. One example from early 1960s - Folk Singer by Muddy Waters. It is available in 24/192 format as direct transfer from master tape. My amp showed 2 watts average and 250 peak at realistic volume level. Tube amp I tried (50W one) did very poorly with it.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
You're the only one questioning them.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
That's good for 8000 watts?
RGA
Super Member
This is true for SS amplifiers - when you listen to a company that sells a 100 watt amp and then their 400 watt amplifier people often feel the 400 watt amp sounds better - but they mistake the reason for that improvement due to bigger watts - when it is actually because of a a bigger better power supply. (it is highly unlikely they're using half their amps power).
But you can also have big beefy power supplies in a SET amp and only have 25 watts that will drive anything with huge bass and impact and make big amps even from Bryston sound thin and completely outclassed.
I am currently running a 24 WATT SET amplifier. The output transformers are beefy and the amp weighs in at 121lbs.
One of my speakers is the KEF LS-50 (83dB sensitive min 3.2ohm) a difficult to drive speaker - my amp has no trouble at all with it. I've heard 100 Watt + amps on it that sound utterly dreadful. The funny thing is the SET actually reproduces some bass - the SS amps tend to sound thin (many are frequency limited) so they shy away from bass - so I can't tell you how many times I read "The KEF doesn't have much bass" - that's because the bass drops to 3.2 ohms and the SS amp is very likely using a wimpy torroid transformer of some sort and feedback etc etc. ARGH.
At CES 2010 I visited countless rooms and the biggest 3 high impact rooms were running modestly powered tube amps. Playing Trance no less.
Here is my amp
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The watts/dB with regard to speaker sensitivity assessment is pretty good. However, the power handling spec is meaningless. The speakers in my secondary system are only rated to handle 25 watts each. I once had the opportunity to prove this to a neighbor. My wife and sons were out. I subjected the speakers to approximately 50 watts each for over an hour. No harm done. I did this because he insisted that my 60 wpc Onkyo receiver was going to blow them. Clipping is what blows speakers, NOT more watts than the speakers are rated for. The only reasons I can think of for manufacturers to even give such specs are to cover their butts in case someone blows a speaker and a lot of consumers want such a rating. The first reason is so that if someone blows a speaker by driving a 100 watt amp into clipping powering a speaker rated @ 25 watts and blows it, the warranty is void. The second is because most people believe those specs to be true.
