Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?

[Les Lammers]

I think the limits to what can be spent are well out of reach. People have spent $1 million + on "entertainment" systems.

I was thinking earlier along this line. What are you willing/able to pay for a set of interconnects? An hours wage? A day's pay? two days?

Me? about a day and a half.

The price is relative to the thickness of your wallet. Mine is rather thin. Boutique goods are produced in many industries.

 

[bshorey]

I was thinking interconnects. I have heard many skeptics qualify statements about speaker cable gauges. But when it comes to hookup cables, many say that they all do the exact same job without discernible differences.

Understood. For what it's worth, you could probably qualify interconnects as well. While the wire gauge may not be as much of a factor with interconnects as it is with speaker wire, improper connections, corrosion, etc, can be just as much of a problem.

bs

 

[62caddy]

I'm also wondering how much does one want to spend to reach sonic perfection? One can spend tons and tons of money on making music reproduced faithfully, there has to be a point where one can go no higher or will it never end?

The fact of the matter is that artificial recreation of live performance is impossible, regardless of expenditure. How much one is willing to expend toward that goal varies with each and every individual's tastes, desires, priorities and means.

 

[bshorey]

The fact of the matter is that artificial recreation of live performance is impossible, regardless of expenditure. How much one is willing to expend toward that goal varies with each and every individual's tastes, desires, priorities and means.

I disagree.

I've got a friend who built a system that took channelized MIDI files and ran various outputs to actual instruments. The piano channel controlled a real piano, the drum channel controlled a real set of drums, etc. Anything he hadn't built a controller for went to a pair of K-Horns.

Now, of course he hasn't gotten it to the point where it can recreate the actual keystrokes of an individual piano player on a specific piano, but I could imagine a point in time where it could evolve to that point. Even with some simple MIDI files it sounded amazingly good.

I don't think we can recreate an actual live performance using the basic sound reproduction technologies we are discussing for the most part on AK, but if you think beyond that then why not? Why not focus on technology that captures the finger pressures on piano keys and then recreates them on the other end, on an actual piano?

I personally believe that, in todays hifi systems, we have been playing a game of diminishing returns for a couple of decades now, and that some alternative approaches might provide better results.

For example, how about sources that, like MIDI, provide multiple channels (16 or 32), with each channel dedicated to an individual instrument? (Or vocal, or in the case of a drum set you might want a channel for the bass drums, another for the snares, another for the cymbals..). Throw away your traditional crossovers and send the output through dedicated amplifiers to dedicated transducers that are better suited to the more specific task at hand. Vocals could be produced on electrostatic panels. Trumpets could be produced on horns. Each transducer could be positioned in a way that is more representative of the actual 'live' performance.

There's got to be a few patents and a business idea in here somewhere. Who's in with me?



bs

 

[JohnVF]

I think something like a simple uncompressed high res soundfield mic recording, played back in a well set up surround sound system, would be much more realistic than stereo.

(sacrilege!)

 

[62caddy]

Obviously this is something that falls outside the boundaries of this discussion. Even then, many are going to point out that a machine is unable to completely mimic the effect of an instrument played by a human.

 

[Brett a]

Image if we spent this much time and money on a love of live music.

But fact is, I like my living room better than most music venues.

 

[JohnVF]

Image if we spent this much time and money on a love of live music.

But fact is, I like my living room better than most music venues.

My living room sounds better than a good deal of them. There are many live performances that I wouldn't want to recreate. Like my nose-bleed seats at the opera.

 

[Brett a]

My living room sounds better than a good deal of them. There are many live performances that I wouldn't want to recreate. Like my nose-bleed seats at the opera.

No doubt many of us can hear things better at home. The stereo is also closer to the 'fridge.

I am, however, sympathetic to the struggles of live musicians now-a-days. I have friends who have been full and part time gigging musicians who are finding it very difficult to find rooms to play in anymore. Karoke and DJs bring more drinking money into bars and clubs for a lot less cost to the owner.

I was thinking if we all spent this much time and money on supporting live music, my musician friends could get better apartments and stop driving shitbox cars.

 

[mfrench]

Image if we spent this much time and money on a love of live music.

But fact is, I like my living room better than most music venues.

My live recording rigs eat my playback gear for a mid-day snack; and my playback gear is top notch.

 

[Brett a]

My live recording rigs eat my playback gear for a mid-day snack; and my playback gear is top notch.

I'm hungry all of a sudden.

 

[bshorey]

Obviously this is something that falls outside the boundaries of this discussion. Even then, many are going to point out that a machine is unable to completely mimic the effect of an instrument played by a human.

Today, sure. But maybe 100 years from now we'll be measuring how accurately the finger motions were reproduced, instead of how much capacitance is in the cable.

bs

 

[JohnVF]

No doubt many of us can hear things better at home. The stereo is also closer to the 'fridge.

I am, however, sympathetic to the struggles of live musicians now-a-days. I have friends who have been full and part time gigging musicians who are finding it very difficult to find rooms to play in anymore. Karoke and DJs bring more drinking money into bars and clubs for a lot less cost to the owner.

I was thinking if we all spent this much time and money on supporting live music, my musician friends could get better apartments and stop driving shitbox cars.

A good friend of mine has just started playing out, and I went to her first show. Afterwords she asked me why they hated one song so much. They didn't. They were just reacting to the hockey game on the TV at the bar. So, yeah...try being a girl who plays droney electric mandolin/omnichord/bells into a loop station while mumbling lyrics in a voice not unlike nico, in a dive bar with the hockey playoffs on. This is why my 'band' has always been a home-recording act.

 

[62caddy]

My living room sounds better than a good deal of them. There are many live performances that I wouldn't want to recreate. Like my nose-bleed seats at the opera.

Dare I admit it- I too like the sound of my hi-fi better than a lot of live performances. I can almost hear myself screaming like King George in The Madness of King George- LOUDER SIRS!! LOUDER!!

 

[robgmn]

OK, now we are getting somewhere!

It looks like you have some nice gear there, and have tried a fair number of different cables/ICs in your system, and in at least one instance heard a difference. but usually not.
In my case, I am able to hear slight differences with ICs and speaker cables, prefering all solid core (magnet wire and CAT5 DIY) mixed with some Kimber Heros, the most expensive IC I have at ~$200/meter.
The differences I hear are subtle, but present. Sounds similar to your case. So why are we arguing?
Edit: To be fair, since you answered mine, I'll answer yours:
CAN a difference in cables exist?
Yes
SHOULD a difference in cables exist?
in an ideal world, no. They'd all be perfect.
If differences exist, WHY do they exist?
Contruction methods and materials would be my best guess.
CAN differences be measured?
Some can.
CAN we hear things that cannot be measured?
I don't know.
CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense?
Yes. UV light, sounds above 20kHz, etc
CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different?
No. How do you prove perception? But if six audiophiles all say just one of the 'identical' things sucks, then it sucks. And you've measured the wrong thing.
Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)?
No

BINGO!

By looking at our answers to those questions, you ask why we would argue with each other about cables.
We really shouldn't be, as our beliefs are pretty much the same (cables CAN sound different, but IDEALLY they shouldn't).


I'd bet a lot of pople would find it to be the case if they posed the questions to each other (or would fiund they are arguing about two very different things.--- "My Mitsubishi handles better than a Ferrari" "Yeah, well the Porsche has more BHP than the Mitsubishi".).

They say the best way to defeat an enemy is to KNOW the enemy.

We're not all enemies here by any means, I just mean it makes sense for me to know a person's rationale for their answers and decisions when I discuss/debate with them.

I WILL state I disagree with you on the fact that perception CAN be proven with scientific testing only because it's been proven that it can, even when the test is done with just one person.

For perception (I guess perception of CHANGE would be more accurate to say)to be real, you can prove that you perceive a change by being able to recognize that change with a higher than 50% success rate when compared to a "base measurement".
If you can't do it, then you are not really perceiving a change (i.e. you can state that you perceive a higher chance of flipping heads versus tails when you wear a blue shirt, but if you flip the coin 100 times in blue and 100 times in red, you'll find that the odds still are very close to 50%. You can state that you perceive a change when you switch from blue coated magnet wire to red coated magnet wire, but unless you hit a better than 50% success rate of knowing whether the switch was made or not without being told, you haven't really perceived a difference).

When talking IC's, if two measure identically (Voltage, Current, Resistance,
Capacitance and Inductance, and anything I left out), they SHOULD "sound" identical.

If you hear a difference, you should be able to identify that difference when it occurs with a success rate higher than 50%.
If you can't, then you've shown you can't really identify the difference.

If you CAN and have verifed it, then it must be that the signal is in some way altered by the cable (or it's interaction with the components, which CAN be proven).

 

[kirk57]

What ever you say. I just want to listen to music, not argue about DBT methods,

That, and it would be nice if we could discuss all manner of tweaks and other unprovable audio strangeness with other like-minded people, without defending ourselves, OK?

All together now:

"Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah

Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya"

 

[Brett a]

CAN a difference in cables exist? Yes, they absolutely can. It's been proven.

SHOULD a difference in cables exist? Technically, no they shouldn't. A "perfect" system would be one that has no coloration added from source to listener (of course, a perfect system would have source and speakers that mimic the original soundwave identically).

If differences exist, WHY do they exist? They are engineered by design or by error, or they are the natural properties of the different cables.

CAN differences be measured?

CAN we hear things that cannot be measured?

CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense?

CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different?

Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)?

Have you ever tried different cables in your system?

Please describe cables (make/model or if DIY how constructed)

Did you hear a difference?

What are your reference components?

Do you have any hearing issues that may impact your ability to detect differences.

Where's Grumpy? Can we get him to make this the new application everyone must fill out to become an AK member?

Here's my submission:

CAN a difference in cables exist? Yes.

SHOULD a difference in cables exist? Not up to me to say. Someone might want coloration in cables.

If differences exist, WHY do they exist? Different materials, specifications, build quality, shielding, age/oxidation etc.

CAN differences be measured? Certainly. however, whether or not all differences can be measured is unknown by me.

CAN we hear things that cannot be measured? I don't know, but I suspect we can; I believe our senses are more refined than assumed by many.

CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense? Of course.

CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different? Sure. All it would take is for someone to perceive them as different. Then you could say beyond a doubt that they were perceived by that person to be different.

Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)? To some degree, but brain scientists are still working on this (at least at Yale and at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.)

Have you ever tried different cables in your system? You betcha'

Please describe cables (make/model or if DIY how constructed) Interconnects: Little plastic freebies, Tara Labs, Custom House, Straightwire, Monoprice, Siltech, Bogdan (with Eichmann Bullet Plugs), DIY Vampire/Magnet wire,
Did you hear a difference?Sometimes

What are your reference components? See link in sig.

Do you have any hearing issues that may impact your ability to detect differences. No.

And to all this I would like to add that I am a Capricorn who likes listening to music, going to flea-markets, and exposing wet lumber to air.

 

[JohnVF]

Here's my answer:

Do we overthink this? yes

At some point it just comes down to the fact that people like to argue. If it wasn't this, it would be something else. This hobby in general, FWIW, seems to attract more than its fair share of opinionated people, myself included. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a time and a place for it. And this thread is about finding the wrong place for it.

 

[Brett a]

This hobby in general, FWIW, seems to attract more than its fair share of opinionated people, myself included.

Not to mention those who don't get out in the real world much to work on people skills. It's like musicians; they spend a lot of time alone in their bedrooms practicing and playing.

BTW, we're 199 hits away from 10k.

 

[kirk57]

At some point it just comes down to the fact that people like to argue.

No it doesn't.