Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?

[BOUXY]

ENOUGH ALREADY with flogging this DEAD HORSE

 

[Fisherdude]

Yes, but not the point.

The point being that a better cable, properly shielded, of the proper gauge, and of a reasonable length will produce a better signal and thus better sound than a cable that is made from inferior metal, inferior shielding, is too thin, or is too long; and that if you start with a crappy system, you can't fix it with really nice speaker wires.

Not the point, either.

And kirk57 is correct.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏



Happy Listening!

 

[House de Kris]

He claims to have heard weak bass.

Yes, this is quite true.

He also stated "at higher volumes". That implies limiting.

True again.

Thinner wire means less current carrying capability.

This is a given, by virtue of its higher resistance due to less metal, for a given thermal rise.

Since the low end of the spectrum demands more current then limiting the current means limiting the bass first as the volume increases.

This is the heart of the matter. So what is being said then, is that it has no effect at low volumes/currents, but does at high volumes/currents. This implies a dynamic resistance of the cable, based on the current flowing. Mmmm-kay. Also, since it is said that it only affects the bass, then this is a frequency dependent phenomena. So, where do these frequency dependent non-linearities of wire come from? From my own personal experience, if you put lots of current through a wire, it will heat up. This heating up will increase the resistance. The resistance will affect all frequencies.

Limiting the bass would be perceived as weak bass.

Agreed. But, how do you limit only bass in a wire on a dynamic basis?


But, like I said earlier, since he's sharing a personal experience I'll accept it. I was just sharing my personal experience along the same line, and stating it can't happen that way.

 

[moejr]

I am a firm believer that better interconnects do make a difference. On the flip side I do not subscribe to the theory that fancy speaker cables make a difference. As long as sufficient current is there so that the speakers have all the juice they need there is no difference. The wire in the speakers are just plain wire. Unless you change that too the fancier cables won't change anything. Plain wire isn't going to change its sonic characteristics because the wire feeding them are all teched out.

 

[robgmn]

But, like I said earlier, since he's sharing a personal experience I'll accept it. I was just sharing my personal experience along the same line, and stating it can't happen that way.

You are correct, it was personal experience and perception.

It could very easily have been swayed by the psychology of knowing that I was using a thin cable versus a thick one (as I learned in grade school that thin wire handles less current than thick wire).

I did not verify that my perception was correct with proper testing, therefore I would in no way state that my perception reflected reality with any accuracy.

I would bet a dollar to a donut that this is the same case with more than 99% of the 'believers" AND the "doubters".

I will say that the one factor that the "doubters" have on their side is that there is a lot of evidence to back up their doubts (scientific facts, electrical theory, tests results that show an inability to distinguish with high accuracy, etc. etc.).

Those who believe and don't like that they are accused of being delusional have a longer road to travel without being able to provide something other than "it's real because I heard it myself" as this is entirely subjective and we humans are easily influenced by psychological factors.
Proper testing equipment is not.

 

[House de Kris]

You are correct, it was personal experience and perception.

It could very easily have been swayed by the psychology of knowing that I was using a thin cable versus a thick one (as I learned in grade school that thin wire handles less current than thick wire).

I did not verify that my perception was correct with proper testing, therefore I would in no way state that my perception reflected reality with any accuracy.

I would bet a dollar to a donut that this is the same case with more than 99% of the 'believers" AND the "doubters".

I will say that the one factor that the "doubters" have on their side is that there is a lot of evidence to back up their doubts (scientific facts, electrical theory, tests results that show an inability to distinguish with high accuracy, etc. etc.).

Those who believe and don't like that they are accused of being delusional have a longer road to travel without being able to provide something other than "it's real because I heard it myself" as this is entirely subjective and we humans are easily influenced by psychological factors.
Proper testing equipment is not.

This is all very well put. Now that you've experienced the 'cable believer' side and can't scientifically explain your experience, perhaps you may consider a little cease-and-desist with your seemingly endless supply of challenges. Likewise, I'll stop with the engineering badgering as well.

Peace friend.

 

[JohnVF]

You may now continue the arguments.

What's there to really say after your excellent post? It's settled enough for me, back to listening (which is where I was anyway).

 

[musichal]

Thread moved to Arguing Out Loud forum.

No it wasn't.

Yes it was.

Not on my PC.

Your PC's perception is influencing you, we need a DBT.

Oh, good friggin' grief!

EDIT: I don't think I have ever suggested a DBT in these pages, but if I ever have, I forthwith retract the suggestion. If someone suggests a DBT regarding any post I make, I may suggest that they first set up a DBT to discover the efficacy of DBTing. Oh, and sorry I bored you Bigerik - just trying for a bit of humor that fell flat for you.

 

[Bigerik]

Yawn.

 

[RayW]

Completely off topic crap deleted.

 

[whoaru99]

I am a firm believer that better interconnects do make a difference. On the flip side I do not subscribe to the theory that fancy speaker cables make a difference. As long as sufficient current is there so that the speakers have all the juice they need there is no difference. The wire in the speakers are just plain wire. Unless you change that too the fancier cables won't change anything. Plain wire isn't going to change its sonic characteristics because the wire feeding them are all teched out.

For the most part, the wire in the electronic gear is just plain wire too although there are some exceptions otherwise, in both cases, where a recognized brand has been used.

 

[bluesky]

I don't defend cables.

But ya got to have quality ones! It makes a difference. Everyone knows it so it doesn't need to be defended.

The right cables for your specific amp and speakers. Vintage cable for vintage stereos.

I love my beyond rare black jacketed 1980 vintage Sansui 'Hi-Efficiency' speaker cables, 23' long each, and don't need to defend them whats-so-ever to anyone for any reason. " I got em! " Just wish I could find one more pair but that will never happen. Maybe, but I sincerly doubt it. Just thankful to have these.

As soon as I 'hooked them up'...I heard the difference in sound quality immediately. Just the way it happen.

P.S. I never believed in all the cable hype. Wire is Wire. Then I saw a guy in Ireland selling these cables. I knew what they were. I won the bid for $10! I was the only bidder. Still can't believe it. $25 shipping Royal Mail. Great Cables!! It does make a difference.

I don't defend cables. But I'd NEVER even think about selling these. 'Never...Ever'.

 

[RichPA]

I still want a forum where I could post, say, a comparison of two speaker cables in my system, and not have the thread crapped on by those who tell me it can't matter.

 

[Fisherdude]

I still want a forum where I could post, say, a comparison of two speaker cables in my system, and not have the thread crapped on by those who tell me it can't matter.

That's exactly what TOL is intended to be, and will be, particularly if a thread is started and the OP says: "I'm only interested in thoughts from other like-minded individuals".

It doesn't apply to this current thread, obviously, because the current thread isn't about cables, it's a thread about threads about cables.

 

[House de Kris]

I hope the point of this bit of cable talk was successful in illustrating to the OP the reasons people passionately discuss this stuff. People may hear something in grade school, internalize it, and run with it. Once they 'own' such a thought, then they are willing to defend it quite strongly.

No, it implies that there is a limit to the current the wire can carry. I'm reaching way back into my undergrad years but I seem to recall it goes with the square of the cross sectional area of the wire. However I wouldn't trust that, it's just what sticks in my mind. At lower volumes we may be well within the limits of the wire. At high volumes things start bumping the upper limit.

Here's the frequency dependent stuff. Let's look at the wire + speaker as a voltage divider. If we (taking things to extremes) use a very small wire with 1ohm resistance on our nominal 8ohm speakers what happens? At low frequencies the impedance of the speaker may dip as low as 5ohms in a nominal 8ohm speaker so about 1/6 (6 being 1ohm of wire resistance + 5ohms of speaker) of the voltage is eaten up by the wire (dissipated as heat) and 5/6 goes to the speaker. About 83% of the signal gets to the speaker. At higher frequencies, due to inductive rise of voice coils, the impedance goes up. If the impedance is 12 ohms at 2kHz then 1/13 of the voltage goes to the wire and 12/13 goes to the speaker. We're up to 92% of the signal to the speaker. If the impedance is up to 30ohms at 10kHz then 1/31 goes to the wire and 30/31 goes to the speaker. Now we're at 97% of the signal to the speaker. So the higher the frequency (or more precisely the higher the impedance) the more voltage goes to the speaker. The lower the frequency, the more dissipated by the wire. As the power goes up the heat in the wire goes up and the resistance of the wire goes up, just like you stated. As the resistance of the wire goes up the voltage divider shifts more toward the wire, however as we just saw, it is more pronounced at the lower impedances of the lower frequencies.

If the wire gets hot enough to hit 2ohms then at the 5ohm minimum of the speaker we have 2/7 or 28% of the signal eaten up by the wire however at the high end we're only looking at 2/32 or 6%.

Hence, weak bass.

This is not the place for such a spirited discussion, the point was already made. PM sent.

 

[Brett a]

But of course, as I see it the reason Brett started this thread was essentially a plea to not have to go through all this explaining when making a simple statement such as "I like what these cables do to the sound of my stereo".

I think Brett probably has his answer by now.

Yes. I got it a while back. I think it's been a good discussion and I think some people in each camp understand a little more about each other. I'm a little surprised the thread has had as many last gasps. But I feel feel like I'm done here. Thanks everyone (really, thank you for your time and thought)

Carry on. (or don't)

--brett

 

[Mister Pig]

I hope the point of this bit of cable talk was successful in illustrating to the OP the reasons people passionately discuss this stuff. People may hear something in grade school, internalize it, and run with it. Once they 'own' such a thought, then they are willing to defend it quite strongly.



This is not the place for such a spirited discussion, the point was already made. PM sent.

Actually I was looking forward to reading the answer. For this particular path would give insights into why cables sound different within different systems. I imagine it could also expand into why different amp/speaker combinations are preferable over others. But the answer would get past the simple resistance and capacitance pat answer. Meaning that once a cable meets minimum standards in measurement it no longer has an effect in the system.

Sure you won't care to elaborate?

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

I hope the point of this bit of cable talk was successful in illustrating to the OP the reasons people passionately discuss this stuff.

I'm not the OP, but 600 posts in and I have yet to read a good defense for somebody thread crapping a cable discussion.

 

[reggaenaut]

I'm not the OP, but 600 posts in and I have yet to read a good defense for somebody thread crapping a cable discussion.

Isn't there a fear factor?