I'm not sure I understand. Who's fearing what?
Regardless, there's no good reason for debating anything in TOL that you haven't heard.
Why are us "cable believers" made to defend our position so often?
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I'm not sure I understand. Who's fearing what?
Regardless, there's no good reason for debating anything in TOL that you haven't heard.
Indeed, the point was made. In an apparent effort to prove that some jerks just can't keep quiet, I didn't keep quiet and went way off topic for this discussion, argued simply for the sake of arguing, and was mostly wrong. I'd like to point to my hellish week topped off by a nearly sleepless night but at the heart of the matter is the fact that I was a jerk. So the answer to the original question, as was pointed out by Fisherdude, sometimes people are just jerks.
My apologies to all and thanks to Kris for bringing me back down.
terra1
Addicted Member
You are misportraying the content of this thread.
It's obvious there have been a lot of science facts and principles provided by RayW, Fisherdude and others that have been conveniently ignored because they were well ... inconvenient to your perspective and debate position.
Even Mr. Pig brought an even handed look to try and look at both sides to bring some peace and tolerance to the thread.
From unfairly mischaracterizing experience as faith to heaping generalizations about power of suggestion, nothing has been provided to discredit the experience reported by others here.
Experience that keeps being dismissed. Experience that is in keeping with TOL and tangible for accumulating data on an opinion forum except for you.
A lot of clever speech making and colorful metaphors. But nothing that would approach what would be a smoking gun for burden of proof. I'll add - from either side's perspective -- just to be fair.
There are always calls for specific ways to test by the other side. Well, do them. There are always calls for measurements. Do them. Better yet, join a member who experiences a difference in testing. The burden of proof to show people who can hear a difference are wrong is yours. "If you're going to shoot, shoot, don't just talk."
And certainly the identical cable example shows the logic is also misapplied -- to the wrong question. So one can only wonder how their logic is misapplying the other science facts and principles. I'm sure we'll hear ...
This is exactly why TOL was created. It recognizes the futility of putting some controversies on cyber trial - whatever the motivation. TOL simply allows people to relate their experiences and let the readers decide. An attempt to KISS.
I'm surprised the mods have the patience.
10000 posts or butts ... erm ... bust!
Addendum:
The power of suggestion is a documented phenomenon. But it is not 100% applicable to everything nor valid as a generic explanation for what you decide to pick and choose to believe ... without some first hand expereience or testing. It is often misapplied as if it were some general band aid when everything else fails.
Prove it's power of suggestion.
You can't prove it applies to any specific individual by merely debating on a forum without at least knowing the variables of specific cable, wire, equipment, environement and the person.
Just because a placebo is an occuring phenomenon doesn't mean you can conclude real drugs - or any other subject under study - don't work for the majority in a study.
Since you like metophorical analogies:
It's irresponsible for any physician to be biased by thinking illness is just power of suggestion or a scientist to prejudice a study by being predisposed to a result.
If you have confidence in placebos as the answer, I'd like to see you replace a dealer's stash with a placebo. I'm sure your claims of power of suggestion would go over with the same hilarity.
Placebos are just another tool.
And in the context of a study - it has the role of a control - not a predisposed conclusion. Placebos do not necessarily invalidate whole studies.
Not everybody is subject to power of suggestion. Otherwise, only placebos would be prescribed or manufactured.
Claiming power of suggestion as the reason when you don't know or share the same experience in-person is a fallacy, if not irresponsible science and quackery.
There are scientific and behavioral facts and theories, but they are not applied without considering context.
I wouldn't want a doctor who uses power of suggestion as the explanation without investigating other causes and talking to the patient to get to know them. Perform further tests and analysis. They don't make conclusions just from rhetoric.
I think it's called scientific method, if not an open mind...
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terra1
Addicted Member
I believe this has been covered too.
Maybe the experts can help you out better.
I am not an expert, but here's what I remember. The wire inside a component are connecting contacts within the amp or receiver which may or may not require the gauge or shielding factors to optimize performance as in outside connects. I know some tuners have metal shielding. You are also using short direct runs and direct soldered contacts.
So in essence once the component is made you have one cohesive unit meeting specific specs.
With cable and wire you are connecting one self-contained cohesive unit with another separate self-contained cohesive unit outside the units with runs that can go from three feet or more. Instead of soldered contacts, you have RCA jacks or speaker terminals.
Regarding wire, manufacturers already recommend a certain gauge or length if running for certain number of feet.
On a larger scale, main line telephony uses repeaters to retransmit signals to avoid degradation. That is if you believe in the possibility of cable degradation. And all you are doing is using one phone with tiny wires to talk with another phone with tiny wires. Even Cat 5 cable is twisted to avoid crosstalk. I don't recall the specific cables involved with telephone lines and cable from the Central Office to your home.
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Bob_in_OKC
Addicted Member
I think point of the thread is - Why can't the skeptics let the believers have a discussion without having to defend it?
That is exactly right. And we seem to have our answer - they just can't leave it alone, because cable discussions are incompatible with their world views.
doucanoe
Registered Audio Abuser
I've got 2- pair of MAC silver IC's (Around $300 retail) sitting on the shelf collecting dust right now because they provide a little too much zing in my system. They are beautiful IC's and I really want to use them, but I can't.
The MAC's are without a doubt, the most esoteric and spendy cables I own right now but my economical (relatively speaking) Zebra copper IC's just sound better. In my set-up anyway.
I'm really hoping the same cost to performance results will apply when I buy my next tube amp. It would be great to just pocket difference.
RC
The MAC's are without a doubt, the most esoteric and spendy cables I own right now but my economical (relatively speaking) Zebra copper IC's just sound better. In my set-up anyway.
I'm really hoping the same cost to performance results will apply when I buy my next tube amp. It would be great to just pocket difference.
RC
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
Mister Pig, no I still am of the opinion that this is the wrong thread to enter into this further. I do encourage you, though, to start a new thread along these lines. I'll probably jump in at some point if you do. BTW, I've enjoyed your sig line for some time now. I'm a chicken farmer, and every time I clean out the hen house, I think of "lifetime commitment for the pig."
More to the point of this thread, there's one more tidbit I'd like to add, and I do think it is highly related. This thread has had its share of detours and side excursions, with my pseudo-technical attack being one of them. This is actually the point I tried to make a long time ago near the beginning of this thread. TOL is about sharing experiences, and experiences can't be attacked by naysayers no matter what. If we could just share our experiences, all would be fine. But, it almost seems like human nature to me that we must validate our experiences by then offering some technical explanation as to why the experiences are real. This 'justification' portion of sharing the experiences is what is so easy to attack. Likewise, if someone just shares an experience without technical justification, naysayers will then as, "why is that?" This bait, if swallowed, then starts the pseudo-technical guessing game and attacks come from all directions.
So, I'm back to what I wrote a while ago, just share your experiences. And, unless you've done a bunch of measurements that support these experiences, don't offer reasons as to why, since they aren't part of your experience. I truly think that if we are able to honestly talk about experiences without the validation claims, cable discussions could be much more pleasant.
VinylRob
Vinylphile
><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>
Maybe we can all agree that Nikki may not have a care what kind of IC cables see uses, if you look closely. I'm sure she is more discriminate with turntable and cartridge purchases... But see has other aspects at her advantage that keep me from even complaining about the cheap interconnects... I'm pretty sure these aspects were of genetic inheritance rather than an after market mod. regardless, they could be part of some of my favorite gear, I am sure of it. I don't think anyone has spoke in this thread about the importance when employing pairs that they are closely matched from left to right. As you can observe from the instructional photo below, Nikki's are well matched.
Happy >))))) Listening!
Maybe we can all agree that Nikki may not have a care what kind of IC cables see uses, if you look closely. I'm sure she is more discriminate with turntable and cartridge purchases... But see has other aspects at her advantage that keep me from even complaining about the cheap interconnects... I'm pretty sure these aspects were of genetic inheritance rather than an after market mod. regardless, they could be part of some of my favorite gear, I am sure of it. I don't think anyone has spoke in this thread about the importance when employing pairs that they are closely matched from left to right. As you can observe from the instructional photo below, Nikki's are well matched.
Happy >))))) Listening!
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
As a follow-on to what I just wrote, doucanoe just wrote a post on cables that fulfills exactly what I was trying to get at. He shared his experience without making up some techno-babble about silver being faster or whatnot. Perfect doucanoe! He also had a conclusion that has been bandied about before, performance is not necessarily tied to cost. If he wanted to share more about what he heard beyond "zing," I'd appreciate it. But he doesn't have to (and I hope he doesn't) offer technical reasons for what he heard. Perhaps adding what components he tried these cables with, but it isn't needed.
I'd like to see more cable posts like this one. :thmbsp:
AnalogDigit
Realistic fan.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Aha, a timely post my friend. I have been meaning to ask this question for a long time, but never have been able to meet up with an unbiased soul who can answer it.
Do all chickens lie and cheat at cards? Wait I can understand that you cannot answer the question for all of chickendom, so how about in relation to your chickens?
You see the chickens on our farm are terrible card cheats. This does not bode well for the new chickens that are transferred to our farm, the inevitably get fleeced.....wait maybe that was the sheep. well they get fleeced too, but in a different manner.
Anyways this results in a standard of living for our chickens that is just plain decadent. They spend their ill gotten gains on cable tv, off site gambling, and various ingredients needed to run their DIY still. Those chickens make some mighty strong corn liquor.
So if your chickens appear to be saintly, I would do some investigating. Especially if you find that copper tubing, mill cans, various valves, and some farm tools end up missing with some degree of regularity. You might blame meth heads for raiding your farm, but it could very well be the chickens too. Just a word of warning.
Regards
Mister Pig
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
You Want to Know a Double Blind Test I Would Like to See?
I want to see Road and Track do a DBT on the new Chevy Corvette, or Ford Mustang.
Could you imagine how that would go.
Passenger......You know where you are heading?
Driver....Of course not, can't you see we have blinds over the windows?
Then there are the guys outside of the cars taking pictures, keeping track of elapsed times, and doing skid pad numbers.
Guy 1 What was his time in the quarter mile? And 0 to 60?
Guy 2 I Got no idea, I can't see through these blinds.
This would be a DBT at its finest.
Regards
Mister Pig
I want to see Road and Track do a DBT on the new Chevy Corvette, or Ford Mustang.
Could you imagine how that would go.
Passenger......You know where you are heading?
Driver....Of course not, can't you see we have blinds over the windows?
Then there are the guys outside of the cars taking pictures, keeping track of elapsed times, and doing skid pad numbers.
Guy 1 What was his time in the quarter mile? And 0 to 60?
Guy 2 I Got no idea, I can't see through these blinds.
This would be a DBT at its finest.
Regards
Mister Pig
Does the liquor taste better if they use higher gauge tubing?
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