Why do Speakers Sound Brighter As Volume Gets Louder?

[onwardjames]

I tried a few years back to address what I've experienced, which is this - it seems amps/speakers have a "cruising speed" or "sweet spot" on the volume knob, which can change with room treatment and such.

For me, I have speakers that only sound their best when they're at a certain decibel level, others, it's the opposite.

 

[Grenadeslio]

if tile or hard surface floors throw rugs are your friend, sliding glass doors?, drapes, windows?, blinds partially opened (I've found verticals partially opened work great for sliders as well), fake plants behind speakers help with boomy bass.

Lots of decor friendly items that can be used to work magic to tame a room, just a little experimentation is required.

 

[sKiZo]

The Fletcher/Munson loudness curve we know and love in audio for many years. P.S. That Marantz is not rated for or wise to run any reactive load which dips to 2 ohms.

Fletcher Munson is so, like, yesterday... ;-}

ISO 226:2003

PS ... one big advantage to digital storage and playback is that you have a much more adaptable loudness control that can be tailored to your exact needs. I use jRiver here. It's built in variable loudness adjusts the curve on the fly based on demand. I also apply a "house curve" in the software's EQ section to match the output to the room.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Fletcher Munson is so, like, yesterday... ;-}

ISO 226:2003

PS ... one big advantage to digital storage and playback is that you have a much more adaptable loudness control that can be tailored to your exact needs. I use jRiver here. It's built in variable loudness adjusts the curve on the fly based on demand. I also apply a "house curve" in the software's EQ section to match the output to the room.

My house`s few more critical listening space`s are so tweaked, SKiZo, Sir.
Everyone else is on their own SQ acceptability, as my ears are not their own !

 

[toddalin]

Fletcher Munson is so, like, yesterday... ;-}

ISO 226:2003

PS ... one big advantage to digital storage and playback is that you have a much more adaptable loudness control that can be tailored to your exact needs. I use jRiver here. It's built in variable loudness adjusts the curve on the fly based on demand. I also apply a "house curve" in the software's EQ section to match the output to the room.

I think that a reference to "Fletcher Munson" is now like saying Kleenex or Xerox or Jello in referring to the concept moreso than the actual device/brand/curves.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Fletcher Munson is so, like, yesterday... ;-}

ISO 226:2003

PS ... one big advantage to digital storage and playback is that you have a much more adaptable loudness control that can be tailored to your exact needs. I use jRiver here. It's built in variable loudness adjusts the curve on the fly based on demand. I also apply a "house curve" in the software's EQ section to match the output to the room.

Fine, for digital. Fine if you like the sound and reliability of IC chips in your audio path, and the incredible long term reliability of ROHS solder, and it's tin whiskers. Sorry, reliability for me wins, and being able to repair it when it's beloved.

 

[tlite]

OP chiming in just to say I’m still here and still absorbing all this info. This is great. I hadn’t wanted to get a separate amp but maybe that’s in the cards now…

 

[rothwellaudio]

The only thing in a crossover that *might* shift response as input level changes is the inductors. If they happen to be really wimpy, give it enough signal and it could saturate the core and significantly reduce inductance. That would tend to shove more midrange out of the woofer than it would get normally.

Yes, that seems like a plausible explanation.

Dynamic compression. If the woofer compresses more than the tweeter as the speaker gets louder the tonal balance changes. This effect was seen in Dick Heyser's speaker tests in the old Audio magazine.

I agree, that's another plausible explanation.

The one point that I haven't seen covered is crossover frequency shifting due to voice coil heating.

Yes, that sounds plausible too.

I'm not convinced by the Fletcher-Munson argument (or its modern equivalent) because it's the bass end of the spectrum which changes with volume much more than the treble end does. If anything, the F-M effect would make the speakers sound more bassy as the volume is increased.

Also, I'm not convinced by the room acoustics argument because the acoustics of the room affect the sound the same way regardless of the volume of the music.

Amplifier clipping is a possible explanation, but I'd expect that to sound just nasty rather than brighter.

 

[joecoulson]

Having a chip set one volume for all tracks is something you want on an iPhone with a Bluetooth speaker setup, not true hifi IMO.
Least amount of junctions to pass through as you can feasibly do to keep the signal as pure as possible. For me, some artists cranked their stuff in production and you can hear it skirt on distortion at any level of playback (RHCP- Californication) and then others are very low and will eventually test the “black” in your background (NIN- Pretty Hate Machine). Regardless of these differences, I want to be able to have the control of changing the output.
To the OP’s original point, the higher up the ladder I climbed, (more specifically when I was fortunate enough to afford synergy in all of my rig) the less I noticed the pitch and change with volume. Just my 2c

 

[Mart Mccall]

FWIW
Triangle says 3 ohms min. and a review had this, " although there is a bit of an impedance dip, it’s nothing that would trouble any good amplifier launched in the last 50 or so years."
https://hifiplus.com/articles/triangle-borea-br08-floorstanding-loudspeaker/

They key word there is 'good'.

The Triangles are not an easy load, an amplifier with a much sturdier power supply than the Marantz 2235 is required to get the best from them.

Reviewers tend to play this fact down.

Tonal balance shouldn't change with an increase in SPL and there shouldn't be any harshness as described. The harshness will be due to clipping.

 

[mad shadows]

It might be a combination of dynamic compression in the bas element and lack of power from the amplifier. If one or both of these phenomenona is present the music tend to become shouty.
One of the things I have come to value as my audio system has developed (got more expensive) is that it doesn't change sound signature when the volume increases.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Also, I'm not convinced by the room acoustics argument because the acoustics of the room affect the sound the same way regardless of the volume of the music.

I've seen some pretty impressive results by using room treatment. I sold a pair of Klipsch Tangent T100s or T200s to a student years ago who eventually became my friend. He was studying sound engineering and spent quite a bit of time optimizing speaker placement and room treatment. I was quite impressed with his results.

Amplifier clipping is a possible explanation, but I'd expect that to sound just nasty rather than brighter.

I've experimented with many different types of receivers, amps, and speakers, and I've seen clipping exhibited as only uncontrolled bass, uncontrolled bass and harsh treble, and I've seen just harsh treble. I think it depends on the drivers and crossovers used. I almost immediately sold a pair of Tangent RS-8s a few years ago, until I changed preamps. I kept the Tangents a couple more years. They moved on less so because of the sound, and moreso because I wanted a shelf to place my glass and sculpture collection. Then I got the Cornwalls.

 

[sqlsavior]

The three main reasons, each of which could contribute independently, are:

1. Inadequate power, inducing clipping distortion.
2. Loudspeaker design not up to the task.
3. Excessive reflectivity in the listening room.

A fourth would be source material that is overly-compressed (with respect to dynamics)...

 

[rothwellaudio]

I've seen some pretty impressive results by using room treatment. I sold a pair of Klipsch Tangent T100s or T200s to a student years ago who eventually became my friend. He was studying sound engineering and spent quite a bit of time optimizing speaker placement and room treatment. I was quite impressed with his results.

I'm not saying that acoustic treatments have no benefit - of course they do - but that their benefits are heard at any volume level, and their absence is heard at any level too.

 

[sqlsavior]

I'm not saying that acoustic treatments have no benefit - of course they do - but that their benefits are heard at any volume level, and their absence is heard at any level too.

I think that there are thresholds below which reflections do not contribute much to our perception. To my way of thinking, whisper-level volume will produce no audible reflections (except maybe in some near-field setups), then as volume is increased, first reflections figure into our perception, then second, third, etc., unless tamed with absorption, or re-directed by dispersion. Reflections at less than echo-length timing are not themselves perceived consciously, but we notice them as brightness or harshness anyway, I think, when they crowd our perception.

Edit: Just noticed this thread, and wonder if that phenomenon is related...
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/reverberation-and-pitch.978117/

 

[rothwellaudio]

I think that there are thresholds below which reflections do not contribute much to our perception.

As far as I'm aware, the RT60 of a room is independent of SPL, as is the spectral content of the RT60.

 

[Scott75s1974]

Fletcher Munsen.

Thanks this answered many questions I have long had.

 

[sqlsavior]

As far as I'm aware, the RT60 of a room is independent of SPL, as is the spectral content of the RT60.

I'm not referring to what instruments measure (and I've nothing against instruments), nor even what air vibrations physically exist, but rather to what we hear, or perceive. I do not believe they (physical phenomena and our perceptions of them) are exactly analogous.

 

[timofred]

Thanks this answered many questions I have long had.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of this,

well I just heard about RT60,
and reading about it began to hurt my head.

We all learn something new everyday,
if we are lucky.

 

[tlite]

Interesting- I specifically asked Triangle about the 2235 awhile back:

QUESTION:
"Hello, I have a pair of BR08’s. I’d like to use them with a vintage Marantz 2235 receiver. This receiver (from the 1970’s) was rated at 35 watts per channel continuous. It also states 8 ohm impedance. Will this be enough for the BR08’s? Since they dip down to 3 ohms I wasn’t sure if this receiver would have enough power to adequately drive the speakers. I know they should work, but wasn’t sure if they will be better paired with more power? Thanks! -Ted"

REPLY:
"The BR08 is a 150W continuous.

With your Marantz receiver, the only problem you will occur is that you will have to "push it" to have a correct level sound and that might be a problem for your receiver at last.


Best regards"

I have experienced plenty of clipping (usually when recording music and the input distorts the signal). This may be happening but to me it sounds like something else is going on, but I don't really know enough to tell 100%.