More specifically, it was intentional nonsense. Seriously folks, listen to jnoyes and stop feeding the troll. You have nothing to gain in trying to argue with Ultralyd who has a long record of hijacking threads to turn them into senseless quarrels.
Why do you like manual over auto turntable?
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iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
I would have to agree here.
This is already way off topic.
The topic was the pros/cons of manual vs. auto/semi-auto tables...not this other bullshit. Shall we get back to the topic?
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
Wow.
Since apparently you have such a high opinion of yourself to render and label the rest of us as "sad and simple-minded", and since apparently you believe your audio system leaves everyone else's in the dust, perhaps you should start your own forum.
Reality check: you are not the do-all, end-all fount of all knowledge and wisdom you think you are.
How about doing something radically different...you claim to be so knowledgeable?...how about sharing some of that knowledge instead of resorting to your childish belittling of others?
Respectfully, I urge caution. Your self-regard is obscuring our ability to comprehend, with our admittedly limited cognitive capacity, the righteousness of your views.
Really people :nono: This is exactly what he wants. Don't you know how to deal with trolls? Ultralyd couldn't care less about audio, all he wants is to start a riot and it's exactly what you are giving him. Just ignore him and he will go away as he has always done when he didn't manage to ruin a thread.
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
Anywaaaayyyy....
I think this thread has potential, we just have to stick to the OP's question.
For the most part, I think it just depends on the design. I've had a few of these things apart. There are plenty of cheesy full/semi auto mechanisms out there. Usually these consist of thin pieces of stamped metal, nylon gears, and springs. In many designs, the tonearm has a rod extending down into the plinth that is permanently attached to a piece of sheet metal. The other components will usually disengage from this piece when the automation is not operating, but you would think that this would still introduce a measurable amount of resonance and mass to the tonearm. Plus, all of the other automation components might resonate, rattle, and "boing" inside the plinth, which could quite possibly introduce a measurable amount of resonance into both the tonearm and platter. Other designs, like Denon for instance, use a simpler, more compact servo/electromagnet system, which would appear to be more impervious to resonance. Sone of the linear trackers are also very good in this way.
No matter what, full manual is the simplest. Beyond the beaings, tonearm wiring, and possibly anti-skate or fluid damping, there is nothing else attached to the tonearm.
Regarding sound quality, there are other factors which are of more importance than the manual/semi-auto/full auto debate... Drive system, tonearm bearing design, thrust bearing design, platter mass, plinth mass, isolation, etc. A better quality, better designed turntable will always sound better.
I think this thread has potential, we just have to stick to the OP's question.
For the most part, I think it just depends on the design. I've had a few of these things apart. There are plenty of cheesy full/semi auto mechanisms out there. Usually these consist of thin pieces of stamped metal, nylon gears, and springs. In many designs, the tonearm has a rod extending down into the plinth that is permanently attached to a piece of sheet metal. The other components will usually disengage from this piece when the automation is not operating, but you would think that this would still introduce a measurable amount of resonance and mass to the tonearm. Plus, all of the other automation components might resonate, rattle, and "boing" inside the plinth, which could quite possibly introduce a measurable amount of resonance into both the tonearm and platter. Other designs, like Denon for instance, use a simpler, more compact servo/electromagnet system, which would appear to be more impervious to resonance. Sone of the linear trackers are also very good in this way.
No matter what, full manual is the simplest. Beyond the beaings, tonearm wiring, and possibly anti-skate or fluid damping, there is nothing else attached to the tonearm.
Regarding sound quality, there are other factors which are of more importance than the manual/semi-auto/full auto debate... Drive system, tonearm bearing design, thrust bearing design, platter mass, plinth mass, isolation, etc. A better quality, better designed turntable will always sound better.
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PapaBear
Active Member
I have always looked at it this way: Unless you are someone who has oodles and boodles of moola to afford "snob level" equipment, and the ability to routinely sit around for hours on end to conduct "critical listening", a decent quality auto or semi-auto, with the shipped cartridge will do you just fine.
Back in the 70s and 80s, I had several friends who were in a perpetual battle about who could have the "best" and "purest" sounding equipment. They went through TOTL "audiophile" components like I did scotch. One week's "this {turntable|amp|preamp|speakers} was THE ONLY one to ever own" was the next week's "that piece of garbage isn't even worthy of being in a garage!" It went on and on and on. I got such a kick out of them coming to my place and listening to my system. The first time one of them would hear it, they'd practically have a coronary after extolling the virtues of snob-dollar-label equipment to find out they had been listening to a "lowly" Pioneer SX-1010 package I bought at Tech HiFi. Once the initial shock of having been seen with their feet in their mouths wore off, they avoided dissing Pioneer and AR (at least in my presence). They kept their little war going until the end of the 80s, when just about all the true high end stuff dried up.
The simplicity (and supposed better sound characteristics) of manuals is meaningless if you don't have at least a mid-line receiver or pre-amp/amp, and damn good speakers, to hear it. For the vast majority of us, an auto or semi will do just fine, no matter what the snobs have to say about it.
Back in the 70s and 80s, I had several friends who were in a perpetual battle about who could have the "best" and "purest" sounding equipment. They went through TOTL "audiophile" components like I did scotch. One week's "this {turntable|amp|preamp|speakers} was THE ONLY one to ever own" was the next week's "that piece of garbage isn't even worthy of being in a garage!" It went on and on and on. I got such a kick out of them coming to my place and listening to my system. The first time one of them would hear it, they'd practically have a coronary after extolling the virtues of snob-dollar-label equipment to find out they had been listening to a "lowly" Pioneer SX-1010 package I bought at Tech HiFi. Once the initial shock of having been seen with their feet in their mouths wore off, they avoided dissing Pioneer and AR (at least in my presence). They kept their little war going until the end of the 80s, when just about all the true high end stuff dried up.
The simplicity (and supposed better sound characteristics) of manuals is meaningless if you don't have at least a mid-line receiver or pre-amp/amp, and damn good speakers, to hear it. For the vast majority of us, an auto or semi will do just fine, no matter what the snobs have to say about it.
Lol,
Well I think for me there is a point of diminishing returns. My records are not all in the best shape and I doubt I could hear the difference between a manual and a great semi auto. I could be wrong though.
I mean I never hear wow or flutter when I play a record what I do hear is scratches, snaps etc. Most of the distortion is not from the turntable or amp its from the record itself.
vinyl1
Super Member
Well, you don't have to go to the ultra high end to get higher quality with good value. There are lots of fine turntables in the $2-6K range, such as the VPI Classic series, the Basis 2200, and the ClearAudio Ovation.
While the manufacturers of these tables want you to use their arms, it is not required. They are designed so that if you fancy an SME or a Graham, you are able to mount it. Naturally, the precludes any sort of automatic mechanism in the arm. And to prevent vibrations, the motors are typically completely separate from the turntable, being placed at least an half an inch away and being connected to the platter only by the belt. Obviously, this makes any sort of automatic motor shutoff impractical.
They do have manually tripped arm lifters that could be adapted to such turntables, but these come with their own mechanical and cosmetic problems.
While the manufacturers of these tables want you to use their arms, it is not required. They are designed so that if you fancy an SME or a Graham, you are able to mount it. Naturally, the precludes any sort of automatic mechanism in the arm. And to prevent vibrations, the motors are typically completely separate from the turntable, being placed at least an half an inch away and being connected to the platter only by the belt. Obviously, this makes any sort of automatic motor shutoff impractical.
They do have manually tripped arm lifters that could be adapted to such turntables, but these come with their own mechanical and cosmetic problems.
hoff70
Active Member
You sound like me
A lot of my records are hit-n-miss from thrift stores and such anyway.I looked at some snazzy manual tables with all the cool adjustable gubbins that'll make you look like a rocket scientist DJ but finally settled on an auto recommended by the fine folks here at AK
I'm glad I got the auto because it fits my style of listening to an album several times exploring it as I go and discovering my favorite tracks over time :thmbsp:
Ths364
Super Member
For me it doesn't matter. It just happens that the turntable I prefer has auto-lift at the end of the record, which I DO prefer. The only other consideration for me is that I trust my own ability to cue a record manually more than I trust an automatic not to get wonky and take out an expensive stylus. I've seen a couple of pressings with weird lead-ins where an automatic table put the needle down and it walked off the edge.
For me the very minimum functionality required is end of side lift - which can be achieved without automation ...
Automatics have always cost a bit more than manuals - at equal performance levels.
But when looking at 10 to 40 year old tables, there is no cost increment to Automation.
As a result one needs to consider other aspects / variables
The electro magnetic servo damped arms from Denon, Sony and JVC all use the same EM-Servo's for arm automation as are used for arm damping - and they are all very very good turntables. Using the EM servo's makes them mechanically much simpler and more reliable long term, on the other hand all the additional electronics may make them totally un-repairable if/when the custom electronic chips fail.
If you want the ability to swap arms, and try out a Graham, a Dynavector, Jelco or SME, then you will need to go manual (possibly with end of side lift depending on arm/table/etc...)
At todays market pricing, the servo arm tables are the best bargains in cost/performance terms.
But almost anyone can work out how to fix a manual TT, fixing the electronics in an 80's space age automatic is a whole different ball game.
Earlier automatics were fully mechanical with lots of belts, gears/cogs, and springs to potentially rattle around and parasitically affect the sound - does this in fact happen? - Dunno :scratch2: - it would all depend on how well engineered (and maintained) they were.
Advantage with mechanical automatics is that there is a higher likelihood of being able to repair them than with custom integrated circuits in an electronic auto TT.
Are there extreme high end bespoke hand made Automatics available new - yes there are, costs are astronomical.
In the sub $5k category (new), there is a high likelihood that the best of the 1980's electronic Auto's will give performance at least on a par with the manuals available new.
In the $5k to $15k range there is a likelihood that the new TT's might outperform (marginally) the best of the 80's Auto's.
Beyond $15k I think the field belongs to the manuals with the exception of the one or two bespoke 6 figure automatics that are around.
Personally I own nothing but semi and full Auto turntables, and am very happy with the performance.
bye for now
David
Automatics have always cost a bit more than manuals - at equal performance levels.
But when looking at 10 to 40 year old tables, there is no cost increment to Automation.
As a result one needs to consider other aspects / variables
The electro magnetic servo damped arms from Denon, Sony and JVC all use the same EM-Servo's for arm automation as are used for arm damping - and they are all very very good turntables. Using the EM servo's makes them mechanically much simpler and more reliable long term, on the other hand all the additional electronics may make them totally un-repairable if/when the custom electronic chips fail.
If you want the ability to swap arms, and try out a Graham, a Dynavector, Jelco or SME, then you will need to go manual (possibly with end of side lift depending on arm/table/etc...)
At todays market pricing, the servo arm tables are the best bargains in cost/performance terms.
But almost anyone can work out how to fix a manual TT, fixing the electronics in an 80's space age automatic is a whole different ball game.
Earlier automatics were fully mechanical with lots of belts, gears/cogs, and springs to potentially rattle around and parasitically affect the sound - does this in fact happen? - Dunno :scratch2: - it would all depend on how well engineered (and maintained) they were.
Advantage with mechanical automatics is that there is a higher likelihood of being able to repair them than with custom integrated circuits in an electronic auto TT.
Are there extreme high end bespoke hand made Automatics available new - yes there are, costs are astronomical.
In the sub $5k category (new), there is a high likelihood that the best of the 1980's electronic Auto's will give performance at least on a par with the manuals available new.
In the $5k to $15k range there is a likelihood that the new TT's might outperform (marginally) the best of the 80's Auto's.
Beyond $15k I think the field belongs to the manuals with the exception of the one or two bespoke 6 figure automatics that are around.
Personally I own nothing but semi and full Auto turntables, and am very happy with the performance.
bye for now
David
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
That's a good point. Also, when using carts that prefer zero anti-skate, like Grados, the stylus will tend to skate into the middle of the first track when using automation. It's more controllable when done by hand. I figure that since I'm already right there using the record brush and stylus brush, I might as well just do it myself. Auto return is nice, but auto lift will do the trick.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
For the record, I own and use manual and semi automatics. And need both.
You sound like me
I looked at some snazzy manual tables with all the cool adjustable gubbins that'll make you look like a rocket scientist DJ but finally settled on an auto recommended by the fine folks here at AK
I'm glad I got the auto because it fits my style of listening to an album several times exploring it as I go and discovering my favorite tracks over time :thmbsp:
Well of course I sound like you we are fellow Sansuians
You going to let 1 troll run you out of Dodge City? Come on you are tougher than that.
When people start talking 15,000 for a turn table that is in a totally different league than what I was talking about. I fully respect the people that are into that realm of audio but I was talking about like 3k and below guess I did not make that clear.
I think for a turntable that cost that much to show its advantage it would need to be matched with very good equipment.
For me I think I am shying away from manuals because I would probably buy a 838 sansui and maybe find that it does not sound that much better and the hassle of getting up to change lift the needle at end of play would probaby bother me more.
river25
Super Member
I have full manual, semi and full auto tables and I love them all. They all sound great.
As mentioned, there are fully auto tables that do not have the gears and stuff to move the tone arm, and therefore do not impact the sonics of the table.
For the average punter there is no difference between the tables. In our systems, with our room acoustics and the gear we run, the clarity of the LP and the quality of the cartridge are the biggest factors. So it comes down to convenience and/or what you like moreso than minimal sonic differences between manual, semi and auto tables.
As mentioned, there are fully auto tables that do not have the gears and stuff to move the tone arm, and therefore do not impact the sonics of the table.
For the average punter there is no difference between the tables. In our systems, with our room acoustics and the gear we run, the clarity of the LP and the quality of the cartridge are the biggest factors. So it comes down to convenience and/or what you like moreso than minimal sonic differences between manual, semi and auto tables.
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