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Why does my Thorens TD160 turntable sound worse than Spotify?

To the OP -- if you're looking for air and soundstage, you could try the el-cheapo ART DJ Pre II phono preamp which does a remarkably good job with this. There's a slight tradeoff in overall tonal balance, but I'm a picky guy and the ART punches way above its price in terms of imaging.

Or if you REALLY want something wide and glorious, try a Denon DL-110 cartridge.

The fact that you're hearing distortion over headphones says to me that something's amiss. Could be stylus, could be setup, could be something strange in the arm bearings. If you try increasing VTF, does it improve at all?
Yep I fancied a Denon DL110 but went for the cheaper option with the Nag... Maybe in the future... Distortion is only very slight and only on some pressings... Might either be cart set up or just inferior pressings - I am being very picky there!
 
I think my Cheap CD player sounds better than my more expensive turntables, and I have a bunch of them. But its not to the point that I think my records don't sound good, they sound very good. I don't look at it as a contest that the winner takes all. I have tons of records that I don't have on CD's. And I have many CD's that I don't have on vinyl. So I just enjoy both, and don't try to measure the shortcomings of one over the other, but relish the fact that I am lucky to own all this music that gives you a life time of enjoyement at the push of a button.

Not everything has to be contest, where one wins over the other. Enjoy things for what they are and what good times they bring you.
 
Is the original interconnect wiring on your Thorens the 6' long thin lamp-cord looking stuff? If so, that might have a lot to do with it. I wouldn't exactly guess that cord to be low capacitance. I had it on my TD-165, and it was the first thing to go. It made a big difference! At that length, it does tend to muddle the highs and damp the dynamics. A very short run of big fat low capacitance cable will restore what's been lost in the top end.

Another factor is the cartridge. It's plenty good, but definitely entry level. The MP-110 is known to be warm and soft in the top end. (I personally prefer that sound, but don't expect it to sound the same as digital. I also don't use a Marantz 2270 receiver. I've tried one before, and holy bass, Batman! The combination of the two might just be too warm.)

Exploring Audio Technica's lineup may be a great idea. If there are still any AT440MLBs left out there, that might be just what the doctor ordered.
Yes it is the original wiring... So a good low capacitance interconnect might improve things?
 
I think my Cheap CD player sounds better than my more expensive turntables, and I have a bunch of them. But its not to the point that I think my records don't sound good, they sound very good. I don't look at it as a contest that the winner takes all. I have tons of records that I don't have on CD's. And I have many CD's that I don't have on vinyl. So I just enjoy both, and don't try to measure the shortcomings of one over the other, but relish the fact that I am lucky to own all this music that gives you a life of enjoyement at the push of a button.
Yep, agree totally!
 
The cartridge has as much if not more affect on the SQ as the speakers. A cheap cartridge on a mega buck table will still be a cheap cartridge, and spending more doesn't necessarily mean great synergy. That's the cool thing about spinning records, when you find that magical combination you'll know you're there.
 
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The other possibility -- if it's just certain records -- is that it's the records.

The thing about vinyl is that there can be a huge variation from one disc to the next. This is something that the digital mindset can't compute. This is why people hunt for certain pressings and/or certain mastering engineer's names in the deadwax.
 
Hey, thanks for the tips. I used the Thorens protractor to set up overhang... Unfortunately azimuth was done with a very basic spirit level, though I did check everything with the Hifi news test record afterwards and it seems pretty spot on...Again, VTA set by a spirit level held over the arm whilst in play position - very basis but not sure of a better way to do it! (ps it does have VTA adjustment)... No, I have never used a clamp....
Your first problem is the gauge. The Thorens gauge is known to be way off. There are alignment protractors you can find online and print out but I don't know how accurate that is unless you calibrate your printer so it prints dimensionally correctly. Start looking for a good alignment protractor. I use a Dennesen Soundtraktor. They are not made anymore but maybe you can find one used. The overhang adjustment causes distortion if it's off.
A clamp or weight for the record is critical. Due to Newton's Law of Action and Reaction, as the record vibrates the stylus, the record itself vibrates. If you don't damp the vibrations by clamping the record to the platter mat, you will hear distortion.
The Thorens platter mats with the ridges are no good either. the record sits on 2 thin ridges and can't be securely coupled to the platter. Get a flat record mat. You can just try using any thick flat rubber mat from a cheap turntable just to try it.
 
Yes it is the original wiring... So a good low capacitance interconnect might improve things?
Absolutely! You'll see turntables that were marketed as "Quad Ready" back in the day, and they always had really thick (and usually fairly short) interconnect cables. That is because thin/long cables tend to roll off the high frequencies, and for quad, a turntable needs to reproduce frequencies upwards of 40 kHz.

CDs, or in this case Spotify, will top off at 20 kHz. Both technologies extend beyond the capabilities of human hearing, but it goes to show that vinyl has some pretty tremendous capabilities for reproducing top end.

That being said, there are some limitations that are ever-present for vinyl.

1. Limited dynamic range. Digital sources usually have around a 100dB signal to noise ratio. Because of rumble and other noise, most turntables will only perform in the 70-80dB range. That's before you add actual vinyl, which inherently adds surface noise and imperfections that will reduce that figure. Not to mention, most listeners don't have the finest multi-thousand dollar turntables. This means that record cutters have to further reduce dynamic range in the form of dynamic compression and high frequency limiting, so cheap turntables can still track records. This means that very high-end turntables probably aren't even operating at their fullest capacity most of the time.

2. Noise. Yes there will be more pops, ticks and distortion with vinyl as opposed to the clinical perfection of digital. Old worn records can be worse.

The most important thing you can do is clean them, and your stylus tip, really well. I've had records that I thought were beyond help sound very quiet after a thorough cleaning session.

No matter how perfectly clean you get your records, there will always be that occasional pop or click that is seemingly there for no reason. That's because little particles of dirt or voids can be in the raw in the vinyl prior to pressing, or be pressed into it. Then there are the obvious scratches and warps that can occur from neglect and abuse. Good or bad, it's part of the vinyl experience... That's why many refer to it as a "living, breathing media."

(It also sounds like you might have a setup issue, as others have pointed out. If this is the case, it will most definitely increase distortion and possibly surface noise, and/or lead to an out-of-focus kind of sound.)

3. Inner grooves. Obviously, with streaming digital or digital sources from solid state, there is no limitation of physical media. However, with a round disc, there is physically less real estate near the inner part of a disc than outer. To compensate for this, a CD spins more slowly when reading at the outer edge, and more quickly when reading the inner tracks. This way, the data always streams from the disc at the same rate.

Unfortunately, a record cannot do this. It might sound great at the outer grooves, but as the needle nears the innermost grooves, you'll likely notice that it sounds less dynamic, dull or hazy. It can even sound downright distorted if the record is worn, the setup is poor, or the stylus tip is bad. (IGD=inner groove distortion)

You can hear so much difference from beginning to end of a side because the groove is moving much faster relative to the stylus tip at the outermost grooves, and much more slowly near the innermost grooves. This means there is less room to store and extract audio information near the end of a side, since it's playing a far shorter stretch of groove.

A shibata or fine line stylus will do a lot better job reading tightly packed information. This will help to mitigate audible effects, but it can only do so much. Once again, records are cut to play on less than savory equipment, so dynamic range and frequency response are reduced for the innermost grooves before the cutter head even cuts the groove. This way, most any TT will be able to play them back accurately.

So yes, these are all things that vinyl lovers have to live with. Does every record sound good? No. Does every turntable sound good? Again no. Can the right combination make magic happen? Oh hell yes!
 
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By the way, I don't own a record weight. That is not to say it wouldn't make my TT sound better, but I would hesitate to claim that it is absolutely critical. Might get one someday, but for now, my TT sounds quite acceptable just the way it is.

Of all the things for the OP to be concerned with at this point, (setup, interconnects, cartridge, preamp, etc.,) that isn't one of the most crucial things I'd be worrying about for now.
 
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Update for anyone interested. I managed to improve the sound quiet a bit...
improv
Firstly, A-B testing showed no positive improvement from the 2270 phono stage to the Cambridge CP1 (I know this is a subjective and often contested issue on here), so I am back running directly into the Marantz phono input.

But the bigger improvement came from changing the VTA. Previous, in order to have the tonearm level when playing, I had improvised an "extra" 4mm cork matt along with the stock Thorens matt. So whether it was due to changing the VTA, or un damping the platter a little, the sound is much better now. Fuller and warmer than digital, and I would think as good as this cartridge is possibly capable of going. Maybe upgrade to a Denon MC in future. Vinyl is not dead in my house yet!
 
Let the MP 110 break in for awhile. I have compared the DL 110 and the MP 110. For some reason people think they are competitors but price wise they are not.

The DL110 has the bigger sound stage and is a very open and airy sounding cartridge. It is lovely but to me it lacks midrange, you may like it because it is less warm and more CD like. I used to love the DL 110 but my tastes may have changed, sometimes the mids sound sucked out when installed on my AR XB. I have tried every kind of loading possible too. VTA/SRA adjustment is critical for the DL 110 to sound its best. You need an arm with this adjustment to get there, or a lot of trial and error shimming.

The MP 110 is the warmer sounding cartridge of the two. Bass and Midrange are its strength. Because of the .4x.7 elliptical, the top end lacks the air and detail of the DL 110.

The MP 110 with a stylus upgrade to the MP 200 beryllium cantilever stylus is the way to go. This stylus is a huge improvement, especially in upper register detail and soundstage. My DL 110 does not get any playtime since the MP 200 stylus arrived.

Edit part 2: I should have mention the TD 160 stock mat. I think it’s terrible sounding. Every replacement mat I ever used sounded better and provided tighter bass and focus, and less smearing in the highs. That includes cork, leather, and rubber Technics and Yamaha mats. Since my TD 160 has an SME 3009 I can adjust VTA, so mat thickness was not a concern.
 
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Let the MP 110 break in for awhile. I have compared the DL 110 and the MP 110. For some reason people think they are competitors but price wise they are not.

The DL110 has the bigger sound stage and is a very open and airy sounding cartridge. It is lovely but to me it lacks midrange, you may like it because it is less warm and more CD like. I used to love the DL 110 but my tastes may have changed, sometimes the mids sound sucked out when installed on my AR XB. I have tried every kind of loading possible too. VTA/SRA adjustment is critical for the DL 110 to sound its best. You need an arm with this adjustment to get there, or a lot of trial and error shimming.

The MP 110 is the warmer sounding cartridge of the two. Bass and Midrange are its strength. Because of the .4x.7 elliptical, the top end lacks the air and detail of the DL 110.

The MP 110 with a stylus upgrade to the MP 200 beryllium cantilever stylus is the way to go. This stylus is a huge improvement, especially in upper register detail and soundstage. My DL 110 does not get any playtime since the MP 200 stylus arrived.
That's a great tip - MP110 with the stylus of a MP200. Next time round!!!
 
Hi folks, after a bit of general advice here. I have in recent years brought back into service a THORENS TD160 MK1 turntable that I've had for ages but stopped bothering with vinyl some years ago. Like so many others, and with a decent library of records, I started to get back into it, but so far with totally underwhelming results.

I still find that my turntable set-up (see below) sounds less dynamic, with less clarity, and worse sense of space and openness than a simple digital system of Spotify into an Apple Airport Express. Doing an A-B between digital streamed or CD rip and brand new vinlyl of the same albums, always vinyl (to my ears at least) is inferior. Certainly there is no difference to justify the cost, and I am currently not really an exponent of the popular "vinyl revival". Listening on Sennheiser DH220 headphones on an A-B I can notice some slight distortion on the vinyl, but this might be what other people enjoy as "warmth". Maybe the 2270 has enough warmth already! Maybe the Airport Express is doing some artificial processing to make the "fake" sound "better"?

My Thorens TD160MK1 has been set up and balanced properly. I added a heavy hardwood basebord and some extra dampling to the sub platter and chassis. The TP16 arm is well adjusted, and set up correctly (I have spent HOURS on this!). Cartridge is a Nagaoaka MP110 in good condition with clean stylus. I re-soldered new RCA connectors but use the original wiring. I have tried both the build in phono of my recapped and serviced MARANTZ 2270 add also a CAMBRIDGE DP1 external phono pre (slight improvement). Dynaco M25X and Kef 103.2 speakers...

Anyone - AM I DOIND SOMETHING STUPID WRONG? Or is it simply that a good, well set up mid price turntable system does not sound as good as a cheap digital?

Really am at the point of giving it up and selling the vinyl collection, turntable etc... just doesn't seem worth the trouble!

Any suggestions gratefully appreciated!

Cheers,
Jon
Ya know... It could be the records. Some records just sound inferior to their digital format counterparts. New vinyl I've found just doesn't have the same quality as older vinyl from the late 70's. I'm listening to Earth Wind and Fire's All N All on an original pressing vinyl and it just KILLS every other record I own.
 
I think something a lot of people overlook... is what exactly they’re listening to.

Modern digital recordings are often recorded, mixed, and mastered for digital listening. So your new... Taylor Swift, or Katy Perry album isn’t going to be the best album to listen to on vinyl. Some might argue that it even sounds better digitally. A $10,000 set up should sound better than a Bluetooth speaker of course, even if the record is modern/digitally recorded. But a low end tt and low end little bookshelf speakers, maybe not.

I think a lot of people are jumping on the vinyl train thinking “vinyl is better” when it’s not in every case. Vinyl is better for certain sounds, bands, eras, styles, etc. But maybe not for others.

I’m not saying any this is the case for you of course, I’m just kinda throwing the idea out there.

Put a very clearly analog record on and have a listen. Something like “dreams” by fleetwood mac. It’s kinda cliche... But that rhythm part should sound good on pretty much any vinyl
System. If you think that song sounds better on Spotify than it does your system... then maybe you just don’t like vinyl, for whatever reason.

But if you’re listening to modern rock... chances are, it was recorded in protools, used a lot of digital plug ins, and was mastered with band camp, Spotify, and iTunes in mind, not vinyl.
 
Although I do have Taylor Swift - 1989 on double vinyl and it sounds brilliant.

Not a joke and I’m the one that bought it... for me.
 
Although I do have Taylor Swift - 1989 on double vinyl and it sounds brilliant.

Not a joke and I’m the one that bought it... for me.

Haha doesn’t mean it can’t sound good, just more of a “don’t be surprised if it doesn’t” kinda situation.

And that album kicks ass. I’ll bump blank space all day.
 
I was just outing myself as someone who loves that album :)

It is brilliant pop for sure!

Pop on the surface, more innocent underneath. Check out the Grammy nominations performance of blank space on YouTube. Just her and an acoustic.

It’s amazing to see what songs actually started out as.
 
I'm listening to Earth Wind and Fire's All N All on an original pressing vinyl and it just KILLS every other record I own.
Man, ain't that the truth. I recently broke out my copy of that record and I swear it's the best sounding record I've heard.:music:
 
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