techkiller80
Member
Well darn it.....I was hoping size didn't matter
lol
Why does the actual turntable even matter?
- Thread starter techkiller80
- Start date
lol
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
There are currently a pair of nice looking Snell Type E/II speakers available near him at an attractive price. If he has the money and space to do them justice, I think upgrading from those tiny JBLs to a pair of Snells would be a HUGE upgrade.
The only caveat is the seller says the woofers have been refoamed and just from the photos, it looks like the wrong foams may have been used. I may be wrong. I'm not a Snell expert, but I know that during the late 80s and early 90s Snell used at least three different suppliers for their 8" woofers (Vifa, Boston Acoustics and Peerless). I believe all of them used black foams and the ones i the photos appear grey. If I was interested in those speakers (and I would be if they were near me), I'd ask the who did the refoaming and where they sourced the foams. I'd point out that the foams are incorrect and they need to be redone with correct foams. I'd offer him $50 less than his asking price and order the correct foams from either Audio Note UK or Rick Cobb (depending on which woofers they have) and refoam them again and do it correctly. If he refused to budge on his asking price by saying they "sound fine to him", I'd point out that properly restored Snells sound much better than "fine". They are a truly great sounding speaker.
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
Well darn it.....I was hoping size didn't matter
It does, and it doesn't. It's also about design and materials. There are plenty of great sounding small speakers and plenty of poor sounding large speakers. Each need top be evaluated on a case by case basis.
lini
just me...
tk80: Well, just like with many things, it doesn't matter within reasonable limits - but there is a too small, just as there is a too big. I.e, unless one goes for too small, a decent bass extension can already be achieved with comparatively small woofers, but that only at the cost of a somewhat reduced maximum sound pressure level. Hence even comparatively small 2-way designs can make pretty decent hifi speakers, but then these won't be good for party levels.
Personally I'd see that limit at ca. 5 " (or respectively ca. 13 cm) for a speaker design for a small room/listening zone.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
(edit: typo extermination)
Personally I'd see that limit at ca. 5 " (or respectively ca. 13 cm) for a speaker design for a small room/listening zone.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
(edit: typo extermination)
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
I will attempt to answer your question with a parallel from the science of seismology. I worked in the Seismology Lab at the Geophysical Institute at the University of Alaska Fairbanks for a few years '89-'92. We were chronically under-funded. Some would even joke about hoping for a big earthquake or volcanic eruption to increase supplemental appropriations from the state legislature. We had about 100 seismometers, which are vibration quantification devices - they measure acceleration caused by movement. (As such, they are a lot like phono cartridges!)
Many of our seismometers were buried in the dirt, about as deep as one could dig within an hour or two of helicopter time. The seismologists had to learn to distinguish traces caused by earthquakes or lava movement from traces cause by the wind acting on the trees - vibrations caused by movement of leaves, transferring to the branches, to the trunk, to roots and into to the ground.
In contrast to us Americans, the Japanese take seismology very seriously. They have, or had, about the same number of seismometers that we did, but they only had to cover a fraction of the area of the great state of Alaska. And they buried their seismometers in hundred-meter deep boreholes or concrete vaults, so they recorded earth movements only, and not local noise, like wind, or trucks, or whatever. http://www.hinet.bosai.go.jp/summary/
The difference between a good turntable and a poor one is comparable to the Japanese methods of isolating and yet coupling their seismometers, and our lack thereof. It is a tremendous difference. It is not due to the seismometers themselves, but what they are 'mounted' to.
Does that help?
Many of our seismometers were buried in the dirt, about as deep as one could dig within an hour or two of helicopter time. The seismologists had to learn to distinguish traces caused by earthquakes or lava movement from traces cause by the wind acting on the trees - vibrations caused by movement of leaves, transferring to the branches, to the trunk, to roots and into to the ground.
In contrast to us Americans, the Japanese take seismology very seriously. They have, or had, about the same number of seismometers that we did, but they only had to cover a fraction of the area of the great state of Alaska. And they buried their seismometers in hundred-meter deep boreholes or concrete vaults, so they recorded earth movements only, and not local noise, like wind, or trucks, or whatever. http://www.hinet.bosai.go.jp/summary/
The difference between a good turntable and a poor one is comparable to the Japanese methods of isolating and yet coupling their seismometers, and our lack thereof. It is a tremendous difference. It is not due to the seismometers themselves, but what they are 'mounted' to.
Does that help?
techkiller80
Member
Where can i find the for sale section? I'm assuming i have to pay to access that it appears?
techkiller80
Member
I figured it out....In Kalamazoo?
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
Barter Town is the selling/trading section of this forum. Sign up for a $25 annual membership to gain access.
The speakers I mentioned are on your local craigslist.
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
Grand Rapids (Grandview).
techkiller80
Member
How can you even tell where each item listed is for sale? I'm not seeing any location information.....Do people just go by whats in the profile?
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
Some people list it in the body, or even title, of the thread. If not, go by the profile. If none of the above, ask.
techkiller80
Member
gotcha....thanks. what
You seem really knowledgable about all this stuff i really appreciate your time in helping me. Is there any specific brands or models that i should look for with retro speakers? Also is it worth getting a retro pair that needs to be re-foamed?
We had a thread not to many months ago along these lines, where they discussed Linn's theory on focus on table rather than the cart. Remember Linn sells turntables more so than carts. As far as a putting an expensive cart on a poorly designed or manufactured table, not a good idea either.
Remember a cart is a transducer, it picks up vibrations and converts it to electrical signals. A cheap turntable will not isolate unwanted vibrations and those will be added to what a cart picks up from the groove. Add to that it might not hold constant speed, which will add to the mix. Bearing noise from the platter bearings, motor noise picked up thru the drive system, then you have tone arm issues with poor sloppy bearings, vibrations resonating from the cart and running up the tonearm and back, less than perfect bearings on tone arm will allow the tone arm to be sloppy which will add more problems. The cart as you say needs to pick up the modulations from the groove, but that's all, nothing else. Any manner in which the transducer picks up something else, will show up thru your speakers. It might not be pleasant.
Better to keep things in balance, IMO. But everyone has their idea of what's best, so feel free to do what pleases you.
Remember a cart is a transducer, it picks up vibrations and converts it to electrical signals. A cheap turntable will not isolate unwanted vibrations and those will be added to what a cart picks up from the groove. Add to that it might not hold constant speed, which will add to the mix. Bearing noise from the platter bearings, motor noise picked up thru the drive system, then you have tone arm issues with poor sloppy bearings, vibrations resonating from the cart and running up the tonearm and back, less than perfect bearings on tone arm will allow the tone arm to be sloppy which will add more problems. The cart as you say needs to pick up the modulations from the groove, but that's all, nothing else. Any manner in which the transducer picks up something else, will show up thru your speakers. It might not be pleasant.
Better to keep things in balance, IMO. But everyone has their idea of what's best, so feel free to do what pleases you.
MCM_Fan
AK Subscriber
By retro, I assume you mean vintage. There are so many brands and models, it's impossible to name them all. And then it comes down to local availability, price, room size, etc.
Those Snells I mentioned are great speakers, as are most Snells. EPI and ADC are other good brands. JBL made some great, and some not so great speakers. Same for AR (Acoustic Research), Infinity, etc. Really depends on the model.
Without knowing your room size and budget, it's impossible to even start making a list. I suggest you head over to the Speakers subforum and start browsing the threads there. I'd start with this thread:
Your Favorite 8 inch 2-Way Speakers
It's specific to smaller bookshelf/stand mount speakers, but there are some great sounding speakers that get mentioned repeatedly in that thread. I think something recommended repeatedly in that thread would be a great place to start. If you out grow them, or decide you want to start with something bigger, at least you will recognize which brands are generally held in high regard.
Refoaming woofers is a good DIY project. There are lots of tutorials and videos online. I've done several. The first pair are a little stressful because everything is new and some of the videos make it look so easy, but it gets easier as you gain experience. Boston Acoustics made some nice sounding 8" 2-way speakers that sold in large quantity (A70, HD8, to name a couple). They are usually dirt cheap on craigslist, or even at Goodwill, because the foams have gone bad. IMHO, these are some of the easiest woofers to refoam. Make sure you get the correct replacement foams from forum member Rick Cobb and they practically align themselves.
ctjetta
It's not a perfect world
In this regard please refer to posts # 1 and #3 of this thread.
It always does, one way or the other lol.Well darn it.....I was hoping size didn't matter
techkiller80
Member
He said he would go down to $275....i mentioned the foam he didnt say much about it. Is that like a killer deal for those speakers if they work properly?
Thunderbox
Super Member
Look at it like driving 2 different vehicles. One is a Chevette and the other is a Cadilac. They both get you where you want to go but the ride is a heck of a lot different. They both use the same gas and oil but the effect is not quite the same.
I think the key word there is "if".
The table can cause the “said cartridge” to pick up vibrations your ear can’t hear. Your cart will pick them and you Weill hear them when amplified by your amp/receiver...
I run low end tables, and some nicer ones, wouldn’t say they are top end but I can say they do improve the sound the cart picks up.
A better idea for ya: take a “POS” table and find ways of dampen and isolate vibrations.