Why Not Use A Sub?

[Theophilus Punoval]

I keep seeing how small speakers generally, and Minimus 7 in particular, don't provide much in the was of bass. I'm not arguing with the premise, but why not use a small passive or powered subwoofer to offset this shortcoming?

Honestly, all my tech training has gone out the window and wasn't oriented toward consumer electronics anyway, so I'm not ashamed to admit ignorance on the subject. But it seems like an ideal solution.

Any opinions are welcome. Please be as frank as you wish.

 

[gkimeng]

Not everybody needs a lot of bass. Those smaller speakers must have had enough for the people who originally bought them.

 

[blhagstrom]

y indeed

Why not indeed. Different gear, different ear. Just do what you like. It can all be adjusted to taste.

 

[dnewma04]

1.) Some people don't want or like deep bass.
2.) Space is at a premium for some people.

 

[JohnVF]

Who's saying to not use a sub?

 

[Hilltroll67]

I keep seeing how small speakers generally, and Minimus 7 in particular, don't provide much in the was of bass. I'm not arguing with the premise, but why not use a small passive or powered subwoofer to offset this shortcoming?

Aside from expense, there is no reason not to - if you miss the bass. Sometimes you have to tune the bass, so it fills the gap without doubling up on the lower end of the main speakers. When both sub and mains are producing the same frequencies you can get a fuzzy, "unclean" sound, I think because the cones have different response times. Maybe.

:scratch2:

 

[dnewma04]

That depends on the implementation. The best bass I've ever heard (by a wide margin) intentionally overlapped the subs and mains to help smooth out the room interactions that are caused by deep bass being played in small rooms.

 

[OldJBL]

When I have tried subs there were two problems that always nagged at me. One was getting the cross over frequency right where the transition between the sub and main speakers was seamless. The other was getting bass that was truly non-directional. this probably relates to the first problem. Maybe today's satellite/sub packages are different but I still prefer to get my bass from the main speakers. I recently hooked JBL L5s up as the two fronts in my HT setup and they can deliver all the bass I need or want. Enough to rattle the walls and feel the vibrations through the floor into your feet.

 

[HappyT_Harry]

1.) Some people don't want or like deep bass.
2.) Space is at a premium for some people.

Agreed. It's all about what you want to hear and the space that you provided. I love deep bass, but don't have a sub because I don't really have room for it.

 

[RadShak1251]

Some people listen to music that simply doesn't include very-low-frequency bass (i.e. organ music) or powerful bass (i.e. techno/rave music), so no need for a sub.

And as I quickly found out during my three years of selling HT gear, as has been said already, some people just don't care about having the entire bass spectrum reproduced.

But as I've whined about here before , I think a lot of the resistance to subs is because many people have never heard one - at any price point - that has been properly set up. I've walked into many homes with subs where:

* the sub's volume level is much too high, resulting in a completely unbalanced effect & ruining the music's or movie's intended effect.

* the sub's crossover point was not chosen correctly resulting in a boomy sound, usually because it's set too high, or an entire chunk of the sound spectrum is missing because the sub's crossover was set to say, 60Hz while the satellites' crossover was set way up at 150Hz.

* the sub's distance setting (and phase setting if provided) on a surround receiver's speaker management system not set correctly.

FYI: the above three settings are now usually handled by a receiver's automatic speaker set-up system, which uses a microphone and a series of test tones. Even entry-level models now usually include such a system (known by various names such as MCACC for Pioneers, YPAO for Yamaha, Audyssey for Onkyo & Denon).

And lastly, another significant reason for bad sound and which unfortunately can cause arguments with your S.O. :sigh::

* sub was in the wrong location in the room. Lower bass sounds are very sensitive to the part of the room they are generated in. And in less extreme situations, I've seen where moving a sub just six inches made an audible & positive difference, but that would have made it visible from the couch, so back it went.

For example, I've regularly seen subs placed on top(!) of large RPTVs and even inside entertainment cabinets, IMO definitely not places where you want a sub to operate.

Like anything capable of doing something "extreme", like a powerful car or a bottle of Tabasco sauce , if a sub is not used properly, instead of adding enjoyment it can end up ruining the music/movie experience.

 

[vinylkid58]

I keep seeing how small speakers generally, and Minimus 7 in particular, don't provide much in the was of bass. I'm not arguing with the premise, but why not use a small passive or powered subwoofer to offset this shortcoming?

Not particularly uncommon, especially for those of us that like full-range drivers that can't get down.

Floyd Toole advocates the use of multiple small subs in his book. Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

Jeff

 

[ehoove]

For music reproduction, subs are particularly difficult to set up properly and usually not a cheap proposition. I tried a powered sub with my Maggies and it was a real disappointment, however now at three times the cost I have a pair of passive subs that mate seamlessly with the Maggies and allow them to play any genre music with ease, and top notch performance. Placement and more than one sub is the answer.
Regards,
Jim

 

[niklasthedol]

There are reasons for not using a sub.
It's pretty clear that some people can't hear these compromises, since they claim there are no reason NOT to use a sub.

The smaller a speaker, the more defined is it possible to recreate the sound stage, the 3D stereo perspective, the dimensions in the music.

Adding a single seperate subwoofer, tend to have a slightly to extended destructive impact on this fine quality.

Adding two subwoofers instead of one can limit this destructive impact a bit if they are positioned correctly.

Another issue, however, is the desintegration.
Any subwoofer will have a different character of sound than the main speakers.
When subwoofers are best, they sound good.......individual.
But they have a very hard time getting integrated to sound great together with the main speaker set in a way so that the sound is experienced as comming from same set-up, same "one set of" speakers.
This is just a humble try on describing desintegration of stand alone subwoofers, which is a problem I have yet to hear, even from highly regarded speaker manufacturers, being solved.

Problem is even more conspicuous when dynamic subwoofers are tried paired with electrostatics, magnestatics, horns, plasma speakers and other non-dynamic drivers.

Then there are the crossover issues and other things ruining sound quality.

But for most normal people, these things will hardly have influence on the average set-up sound in any audible way.

"dolph"

 

[geiman]

Getting the crossover freq right and level matching are the challenge.
The current setup I'm running is Yamaha NS-10's with a HSU VTF-3. Getting the sub level right took a lot of trial and error. I wound up getting the final level setting by ear,
(I guess that's an acceptable way), to get the most natural sound(to me).
I'm using a Threshold Amp and pre, with which the synergy of the whole package is good.Once set, this system sounds great.
I hear bad press about the NS-10's, but I think those that have a negative opinion of them are wrong, at least I don't find the faults(harshness, too forward, mid range hump in the response,ect...) to be true.
The Hsu sub really helps these speakers. This will be on the A system for a while!

 

[TerryO]

Not particularly uncommon, especially for those of us that like full-range drivers that can't get down.

Floyd Toole advocates the use of multiple small subs in his book. Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms

Jeff

Isn't that the truth about fullrange drivers. If they go down far enough then it's not especially hard to integrate them seamlessly.


Dan Wiggins, Dr. Earl Geddes and Phil Bamberg have long championed multiple subs to get excellent sound through the use of "Distributed Bass." Earl Geddes in fact, coined the term, as well as doing a lot of research on the concept. Works very well, if you have the space.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[Echosphere]

Lots of good reasons to get a sub from the info, esp RadShack and Dolph.

Personally, in all my listening I've never found a sub that I liked, except for movies.

Probably because I never set it up right, nor set the crossover correctly. Also, have never tried dual subs. But then I always got tired of taking the time to tweak it constantly. I always felt like I had to adjust the level and crossover for different songs, even on the same album, to get it to "sound right" to my ears.

And for all the talk about "non directional" and ears not being able to hear where it's coming from, doesn't make sense to me. Why can I hear the direction the kids are driving down the street with their massive subs then? (ok, maybe not the best example...)

 

[SWL3600]

When a good sub is dialed in properly it is hard to deny the benefits. Whether you like deep bass or not the speakers performance is enhanced in a number of ways.

Depending on the room...implementing a sub can often be very difficult to get it "just right".

 

[niklasthedol]

Lots of good reasons to get a sub from the info, esp RadShack and Dolph.

Personally, in all my listening I've never found a sub that I liked, except for movies.

Probably because I never set it up right, nor set the crossover correctly. Also, have never tried dual subs. But then I always got tired of taking the time to tweak it constantly. I always felt like I had to adjust the level and crossover for different songs, even on the same album, to get it to "sound right" to my ears.

And for all the talk about "non directional" and ears not being able to hear where it's coming from, doesn't make sense to me. Why can I hear the direction the kids are driving down the street with their massive subs then? (ok, maybe not the best example...)

I have no problems hearing 3D stereo all the way down in my set-up.
Plenty of recordings here to justify.

"dolph"

 

[dnewma04]

The negativity towards subs almost assuredly comes from not hearing them setup well, as others have mentioned. The more subs you use, the easier setting them up well becomes. If you simply avoid bunching them up and placing them near the mains, you are on your way to better bass performance. If you are a little more methodical, you can achieve results unparalleled by most systems without subwoofers.

Most people also make the mistake of getting one very high quality/very expensive sub when for the same money, 3 quality subs of lower cost will make for a drastically better musical experience.

 

[niklasthedol]

The negativity towards subs almost assuredly comes from not hearing them setup well, as others have mentioned. The more subs you use, the easier setting them up well becomes. If you simply avoid bunching them up and placing them near the mains, you are on your way to better bass performance. If you are a little more methodical, you can achieve results unparalleled by most systems without subwoofers.

Most people also make the mistake of getting one very high quality/very expensive sub when for the same money, 3 quality subs of lower cost will make for a drastically better musical experience.

This is of no difference as to say that people claiming they have heard the subs set up well, simply lacks the ability to hear what's wrong.

"dolph"