Why Not Use A Sub?

[AngelRa]

I have tried many subs in many systems:
Velodyne, Martin Logan, Klipsch, Definitive, Radio Shack, and Daynton.

In most cases the systems got a noticeable improvement by turning the sub OFF! Even when the owner was telling how much better it was with the sub, we later found the sub to be detrimental to the sound. But not always the sub was a problem. I auditioned 2 systems where the sub did actually improved the performance. Both were in large rooms with small speakers.

 

[Theophilus Punoval]

How 'Bout

How 'bout an equalizer in the Minimus 7 / Bose passive sub combo? Would that solve some issues or just be some more counterproductive equipment?

 

[RadShak1251]

Well.............I'd say you just explained yourself a bit uncomplete then.
Who talks about full range drivers?

From your post #28:

Maybe some of those people using 5'' drivers (without mentioning the amount of 5'' drivers) consider you as a "non-audio hobbyist music fan".

I mistakenly thought you meant full range five inch drivers and *I* thought you thought I was insulting people who liked the sound of FR systems that used 5" drivers (did that make any sense? ara: ). My mistake! Never mind.

now back to the original thread...............

 

[RadShak1251]

I kind of think, that if the system is not designed to be used with with a sub, then you wind up with that boomy sound the rappers like. If your mains have 8" or bigger speakers you should not need a sub.

Well, you shouldn't need a subwoofer.....if those mains have been positioned so their lower bass output is optimized. But most of the time in my experience the lowest bass frequencies sound best when emanating from or near a corner of the room, but when the main speakers are placed there stereo imaging is now pretty much destroyed.

Try placing one of your mains in/near a corner and listen to the low bass notes. Volume-wise they should increase significantly and you might even hear bass you've never heard - or felt - before when placed this way. Of course the upper bass/lower midrange will also be emanating from there and those frequencies aren't all that happy in that location.....but then again, subwoofers don't handle those.

 

[aidynphoenix]

i didnt read the whole post..
but IMO.. for movies you NEED bass.. action movies like The Dark Knight are not the same without that huge sound..

now for music i think there is two ways to listen to it..
do you put on some funky ass shaking music and dance... or do you put on some music and sit in your chair with your drink and kick back??

if you like to get up and move.. you might like the bass a bit more.. IMO..

 

[rifftrax]

I have a hard time believing any 8" driver will offer useful output past 30hz ever.

 

[marc mc]

The negativity towards subs almost assuredly comes from not hearing them setup well, as others have mentioned. The more subs you use, the easier setting them up well becomes. If you simply avoid bunching them up and placing them near the mains, you are on your way to better bass performance. If you are a little more methodical, you can achieve results unparalleled by most systems without subwoofers.

Most people also make the mistake of getting one very high quality/very expensive sub when for the same money, 3 quality subs of lower cost will make for a drastically better musical experience.

Every person who reads this thread needs to read this post outloud to themselves a couple of times.

What has been posted here concerning a single sub "tryout" in your system is of ZERO consequence in regards to subs. If you tried one sub and prefered your system without I'm not surprised and you should at this point read newmans post again!

I will also add that we can talk about cables, amps, LP vs CD. source or speakers and on and on. But understand that for those of use that have heard a distributed bass setup (3 or 4 subs) its not a well.....yah I guess it sounds OK, thing. Its stunning! And until you you've heard what newman is talking about your idea of what subs are for and can do is extremely limited. Not to mention that your thinking is actually keeping you back from an absolutely phenomenal audio experience, reagrdless of the speakers you are currently using. And if you think that a distributed sub set up has anything at all to do with the sound that comes out of those little cars driven by guys with baseball caps. Then you are actually the farthest away from what newmans is talking about and subs for home use in general.

Re-read newmans post and try to get by your bias and understand that what he says is a totally slam dunk. And try to understand that bass distribution is not about adding more bass! In fact it has very little to do with bass.

BTW thanks mewman! It was your posts concerning multiple subs that got me looking in that direction last year and I can assure you the results are truly amazing. I am literally listening to all my music for the first time.

marc mc

 

[CountBowers]

An SPL meter, "Room Equalization Wizard" software, and a highly versatile parametric EQ such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer, will allow you to fine-tune your bass setup to your room.

Multiple subs would be better (and is the path I'm going to take when I have the funds), but you would be amazed what a properly equalized sub does to your music.

If anyone is in the Portland area and wants to hear the difference, PM me.

 

[gkimeng]

I've heard good and bad subwoofer setups over the years. The ones I considered "good" were all in music systems, the "bad" ones all in HT systems. I don't know if there's some inherent problem in setting up a system where the switchover from mains to sub happens at 100 Hz that isn't an issue in one where the mains handle LFs down to the 30-50Hz range and the sub takes over from there down, or if it was merely a case of bad setup by HT owners who wanted more bass for their exploding death stars rather than just extended bass for music.

 

[hotroady]

raising subs off floor helps with music, not downfiring though.

 

[Copa1934]

Having experience with multiple subs (not at the same time) I can easily support as well as shoot down subs. I have a lot of experience with them, especially with different sources, i.e. types of music, HT, etc. As best I could dial in my sub it was never fully satisfactory. This does not make the sub bad. It only means that when a sub shines it truly shines. When it doesn't, well it doesn't. dnewman is correct on many fronts and people that don't read his posts open mindedly and completely will miss the point(s) entirely. Their loss.

Is bass for everyone? Of course not. Does a sub, or multiple subs answer everything? Of course not. We do, afterall have the ability to make compromises. Many subs today have remotes that allow for not only fine tuning but turning off the sub entirely. Add a sub, use it for the material it's suited for and then turn it off when it doesn't. Quite simple if you ask me. Why must so many of you make such a complicated mess of such a simple issue. I mean really! Yes tuning is not simple, but it can be done.

 

[marc mc]

Is bass for everyone? Of course not. Does a sub, or multiple subs answer everything? Of course not. We do, afterall have the ability to make compromises. Many subs today have remotes that allow for not only fine tuning but turning off the sub entirely. Add a sub, use it for the material it's suited for and then turn it off when it doesn't. Quite simple if you ask me. Why must so many of you make such a complicated mess of such a simple issue. I mean really! Yes tuning is not simple, but it can be done.

I leave mine on all the time. I find that once I set up an active system things stay for all the miusic I play there.

I should add that I don't use powered subs. I use DIY subs that have fantastic drivers in cabs with known peramiters. I use 4 amps and 2 active crossovers. The main speakers are triamped 4 ways with subs and a second set of subs runs off a serperate active and its own amp. This gives me control of volume and cutoff points of both sets of subs.

I have owned and heard many of the plated subs and do not like them and they do not sound at all like mine. I owned a pair of Paradigm subs and never got them sounding anything like music in my channel systems. I feel thats what the experience that many here are speaking from. That is not what I do and not were I'm coming from at all.

marc mc