Why Not Use A Sub?

[dnewma04]

Nik, whatever makes you happy. You have very unique preferences amongst audiophiles and you only need to satisfy your own tastes in what you feel sounds right. You can claim it's because you hear better than the rest of us, have better gear than the rest of us, but I wouldn't be happy with it and couldn't live with your sound.

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

As my dear old departed daddy oft said of the automotive market, "There's an ass for every seat".
Meaning simply that what floats one person's boat, doesn't neccesarity float another's.

 

[RadShak1251]

Most people also make the mistake of getting one very high quality/very expensive sub when for the same money, 3 quality subs of lower cost will make for a drastically better musical experience.

I don't mean to sound negative, but in my experience getting someone to purchase and properly set up just ONE subwoofer can be really difficult, so I cannot begin to imagine the difficulty when advising them to buy more than that. Not to mention all the cables you'd have to string around the room - a major source of heated arguments among married couples - when using more than one sub. This is not theory on my part but actual experience, selling them and as a hobbyist when helping friends/family.

So when Toole advises the use of 1+ subwoofers, he may be technically correct but in the real world, IMO it's gonna be one hell of a hard sell most of the time, and I'm afraid may turn people off to the idea of using ANY sub at all.

 

[dnewma04]

The methods described by Toole, Geddes, Wiggins, and Bamberg actually make that setup easier. It doesn't make SAF easier, for sure, but getting optimum performance with bass becomes simpler and nearly foolproof. Most of us get away with murder with SAF compared to average folks. I don't see it being a terribly difficult sell to have 3 subs in a room when I often see pictures of stacks upon stacks of speakers posted around these parts.

 

[RadShak1251]

The smaller a speaker, the more defined is it possible to recreate the sound stage, the 3D stereo perspective, the dimensions in the music.

???

I'm not sure how low bass frequencies can disturb the imaging ability of the other drivers, so I assume you mean the physical size of the speaker cabinet itself can cause imaging to suffer. That can happen, but if a designer knows what he is doing, a large speaker can project a very stable and precise stereo image.

What I think may cause people to believe that a large floorstander's imaging sounds "murky" or "blurry" is something closely related to this thread: if the floorstander is not positioned correctly, much like a subwoofer the floorstander's lower bass can become overly-loud and unlike a sub, a floorstander's upper bass and lower midrange frequencies can sound thick-n-boomy. So because of this sloppy bass one hears, the listener might perceive the rest of the speakers' output to sound sloppy as well i.e. it's like a layer of "sonic haze" sitting on top of everything else.

I've listened to and owned many large floorstanders and large bookshelfs that had excellent imaging when positioned properly. Unfortunately what usually ended up suffering in these systems was the lower bass output, because there are few times when the speaker is located for best imaging and best low-bass performance. That's why sat+sub systems can be great to own! And I don't mean you have to use those tiny plastic sats with tiny 3 inch "woofers": you can use any speaker with a subwoofer, just make sure to use the right crossover point, level settings, etc for those particular sats.

A good sub set up right can generate very deep, controlled and clean bass......but only when it's actually contained on the CD/LP or the movie soundtrack. I have heard very few large speakers that can equal a good sub's clean/powerful/deep bass.

 

[RadShak1251]

I don't see it being a terribly difficult sell to have 3 subs in a room when I often see pictures of stacks upon stacks of speakers posted around these parts.

I guess I should have qualified my statement by adding "Regular Joes."

These days so many non-audio hobbyist music fans are convinced that tiny bass boxes with a couple of 5 inch drivers are all the "subwoofer" they need, I've found it tricky to get them to consider even a 10" subwoofer in a fourteen inch (cubed) enclosure.

 

[dnewma04]

Agreed, they'd definitely not be the target market for distributed bass.

 

[niklasthedol]

I guess I should have qualified my statement by adding "Regular Joes."

These days so many non-audio hobbyist music fans are convinced that tiny bass boxes with a couple of 5 inch drivers are all the "subwoofer" they need, I've found it tricky to get them to consider even a 10" subwoofer in a fourteen inch (cubed) enclosure.

Maybe some of those people using 5'' drivers (without mentioning the amount of 5'' drivers) consider you as a "non-audio hobbyist music fan".

Besides that, I will let you guys pat each others shoulders in agreements from now on.

"dolph"

 

[TerryO]

I have no problems hearing 3D stereo all the way down in my set-up.
Plenty of recordings here to justify.

"dolph"

Dolph,
I've seen people that can even hear 4D! The state institutions have special facilities for these very special folks. I have no doubt about your abilities either.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[niklasthedol]

Dolph,
I've seen people that can even hear 4D! The state institutions have special facilities for these very special folks. I have no doubt about your abilities either.

Best Regards,
TerryO

Yeah well, it seems like you know it from the inside...........

Go get drunk or eat whatever you can find in the forrest and research your own ability to hear 7D.
Maybe you've already been there.
You will find yourself here.

"dolph"

 

[Stuart Pedaso]

I keep seeing how small speakers generally, and Minimus 7 in particular, don't provide much in the was of bass. I'm not arguing with the premise, but why not use a small passive or powered subwoofer to offset this shortcoming?

Yes, those darned Minimus-7s ...

It's often cited how the Visonik David beget the Braun/ADS minis and then Minimus-7 and others that followed. The Visonik was paired rather quickly with M&K's Goliath in recognition, it would seem, of benefit from some added bottom end. Thus spawning the "sub/sat" concept which became widely adopted.

Radio Shack, who launched the M-7 in '78, seemingly didn't catch on until '92 when they finally introduced a 12" passive sub (40-4050) specifically marketed for pairing with M-7 and M-77.

I think the reason, in part, is that Visonik, Braun & ADS courted a different market than Radio Shack.

Being much pricier favoured the attention of more affluent enthusiasts who could and would channel resources to extract maximum performance from the little speakers.

Minimus-7 marketed to a younger crowd on the move. Think "portability" -- cars, dorm rooms etc. RS offered compact systems (e.g., "System Seven" and "System Eleven"), using small form-factor receivers with bass enhancement circuitry to further support that portability. It wasn't about achieving playback perfection so much as getting the biggest bang in the smallest space for the least dough that could be moved easily.

I personally find that some music doesn't require a sub for listening satisfaction. For music that demands it, I feel it's not terribly daunting to integrate a sub (or subs) with Minimus-7s and similar, within the smaller listening spaces they were intended for.

Even in larger spaces, integrating a high frequency element with a low frequency element within a room -- the third element to integrate -- is just as full of challenges and compromises with a standalone system as with a sub/sat system. Different compromises perhaps, but one can only choose subjectively from among them to achieve the least offensive and most enjoyable personal listening experience.

Kinda guarantees differences of opinion as to which options are superior.

 

[RadShak1251]

Maybe some of those people using 5'' drivers (without mentioning the amount of 5'' drivers) consider you as a "non-audio hobbyist music fan".

Dolph: I think you may have misunderstood what I was talking about.

I was not referring to full range drivers, instead I was actually referring to the bass modules that a certain speaker corporation here in the States sells that are (usually) equipped with two 5" woofers. These bass modules don't produce anything close to 20Hz bass frequencies and the bandpass versions can be what some call "one note wonders", which is why I used them as an example in my post.

 

[niklasthedol]

Dolph: I think you may have misunderstood what I was talking about.

I was not referring to full range drivers, instead I was actually referring to the bass modules that a certain speaker corporation here in the States sells that are (usually) equipped with two 5" woofers. These bass modules don't produce anything close to 20Hz bass frequencies and the bandpass versions can be what some call "one note wonders", which is why I used them as an example in my post.

Well.............I'd say you just explained yourself a bit uncomplete then.
Who talks about full range drivers?

"dolph"

 

[dnewma04]

He was referring to Bose. Let's move on.

 

[Echosphere]

Ummm.... Know I'm new here.

Much of you I've conversed with and fine folks.

Could we talk about subs?

 

[Dan ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ]

Could we talk about subs?

Sure thing!

 

[dnewma04]

Three subs! That's just the right number for excellent performance.

 

[rifftrax]

Sure thing!

Those ones have just the right amount of bite, depending on placement I've found. The can also really fill in some of the low end when other subs just tend to crap out.

 

[graywolf]

I kind of think, that if the system is not designed to be used with with a sub, then you wind up with that boomy sound the rappers like. If your mains have 8" or bigger speakers you should not need a sub. My 8" frankenspeakers go down to 22cps measured. They fall off so quickly below that that they filter out subsonics. Strange thing is I do not know how they do on the other end as neither my ears nor my measuring equipment (the laptops sound card) don't do much good beyond 13K.

With a properly designed system I think you can get more even sound in the room with a sub however.

 

[TerryO]

I kind of think, that if the system is not designed to be used with with a sub, then you wind up with that boomy sound the rappers like. If your mains have 8" or bigger speakers you should not need a sub. My 8" frankenspeakers go down to 22cps measured. They fall off so quickly below that that they filter out subsonics. Strange thing is I do not know how they do on the other end as neither my ears nor my measuring equipment (the laptops sound card) don't do much good beyond 13K.

With a properly designed system I think you can get more even sound in the room with a sub however.

To prevent the boomy bass, you actually need a minimum of three subwoofers and a bit of patience setting it up correctly in the Distributed Bass format. If your 8inch drivers go to 22Hz, they would need to have an awful lot of excursion, and probably several of them anyhow, to get really high SPL levels.

Treat yourself to SOTA smooth bass and give your hard working woofers a break. You'll be glad you did.

Best Regards,
TerryO