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Why Recap Speakers and When?

Recapping Tolerances

lorne said:
Capacitors in parallel, where Ct is the total capacitance: Ct= C1+C2+C3 ... Cn. Each cap will see the same voltage, and its rating will remain the same as specified on the jacket. (But for future reference, be aware that the maximum voltage that can be safely applied to paralleled capacitors is limited to the lowest rated cap in the configuration).

220uF seems a really big cap value! Is the stock cap a non-polar/bipolar electrolytic? (I'm betting that it is.) If so, and if it is on the woofer, you might be OK with another electrolytic. But someone should analyse the network circuit and advise you on whether or not it would be worth stacking up film caps. I would ensure that the voltage on each cap is at least the same as the original, because AFAIK, the voltage of an electrolytic cap can be commensurate with the performance and behaviour in the circuit. (Whether you would actually “hear” mismatches is another question). I would also match brands and the cap's specific series. This will be printed on the jacket in the form of an alphabetic code or series number. I've had no experience in network substitutes or replacements in excess of 50uF.


I respect your apparent authoity here. Are the tolerances cumulative if one uses caps combined to equal a given value? I would presume they would be, but then again I am asking you to be certain.

Yout thoughts on using a "bypass" capacitor as JBL uses it. IE like a .15 uf cap or so used in the upper freq. part of the xover to aquire a better transient responce.
Thanks
DC
 
220µf?!. . .

I'm not sure which order filter your speaker uses, but a 220µF cap used in a first order filter application has a crossover point of:

4 ohm - 180Hz

8 ohm - 90Hz

So, how/where is this big cap actually being used?

. . Falcon
 
I respect your apparent authority here. Are the tolerances cumulative if one uses caps combined to equal a given value? I would presume they would be, but then again I am asking you to be certain.
I am neither an authority nor an engineer, so I consider my contribution here to be provisional. In other words, if one of AK's authoritative professionals or consummate hobbyists contradicts what I say with science at hand, and because this is a 'sticky', I will either edit or delete things unless otherwise directed by the moderator.:ntwrthy:

Tolerances will be arithmetic in a configuration of parallel capacitors. In other words, they will be both additive and subtractive. Electrolytic capacitors can be + 50% to minus 20% of the nominal value. Other types such as polypropylene, polyester, Mylar range from 1% to 10%. Remember that on top of this, electrolytic types are subject to much greater drift due to ageing and instability than film types.

Now, the following is my opinion culled from more hours spent trawling the knowledge of better minds and education than WAF may consider sane or healthy (slow learner?:tears:) : if one is going to parallel electrolytic caps, the best way to ensure success would be to use a capacitor tester to match specimens before installation. (I don’t own one myself). That being said, my approach would be to source a single cap of the specified/original value and refrain from using multiple caps in parallel.

As for film caps: failure to match caps may or may not have negative consequences. For one thing, specified tolerances are (apparently) conservative. And, variances may cancel each other. Furthermore, any residual variation from nominal value may not be detractive to performance in relative terms. There are just so many other factors involved. Obviously we want to be as precise as is practical, but WHERE the determinative limits lie is unpredictable for anything but a specific case, and even then problematic. If you use film caps at 1% (coded as F), 2% (G) or perhaps even (J) 5% you should at least have peace of mind. If you end up putting two or three film caps in parallel, and if you find evidence to support the prediction that a 5% variation from nominal spec will produce a 50 Hz shift, I'd look into the situation.

As for my projects, I just bunged-in what I had stocked for the purpose and then worried more about lead-length, good soldering and heat dissipation.

Your thoughts on using a "bypass" capacitor as JBL uses it. IE like a .15 uf cap or so used in the upper freq. part of the xover to aquire a better transient response.

IMHO, if the original design uses a bypass on the same type of capacitor as you will be using as a replacement, then use one. I have deleted bypass caps after substituting the original electrolytic primary cap with a film cap. In general, bypassing gets into a controversy of galactic proportion, and the science that might apply to specific instances becomes, at least for me, opaque. In the case of bypassing, you are free to experiment. The values are small, so parts will be inexpensive. And if you use heat clips on any leads to protect your primary cap, you can solder and snip with immunity.
 
... by any other name ....

Perhaps I should have mentioned that 'Mylar' is Dupont Corp's name for their polyester recipe. This is why it is usually spelled with the upper case 'M' as it is a registered trademark. — cheers — Lorne
 
Nevermind, I just found a photo of the crossover network in the CS-99A. Obviously NOT 1st order filtration.

Based on the photo I saw, they appear to have a 5-way network. Is this correct???

. . Falcon
 
FalconEddy wrote
Based on the photo I saw, they appear to have a 5-way network. Is this correct???
I believe that I have read exactly that. What do you think this 220uF cap does? Do you have an URL for the network circuit — or whatever it was that you found?
 
Someone in Detroit area to recap

Is there anyone reliable in the Detroit area who can recap my Sansui 7500's. I don't have the time or knowledge.
 
I recapped my HPM-100's today because of what I've read over time on AK. I have to say that I'm glad I did it.

I was only able to listen for maybe 20 minutes tonight but did notice that they do sound cleaner and more life-like. I'll be able to tell more as time goes on.

I used Solen for the 3uf and 4.4uf replacemants and Auricap for the 0.15uf cap. I also replaced the 10ohm wirewound resistor with a Mills non-inductive resistor. I was able to do both speakers for just under $35.00 with shipping. That's not a bad price imo to do both speakers. All parts purchased from Parts Express.

Paul
 

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I've found this thread quite interesting but need some additional assistance.

I'm looking at re-capping some Infinity QLS'. For the Watkins woofers, they use a couple of big non-polar electrolytics of pretty high value - 1100 mf and 1400 mf. I'm having trouble locating anything in that size.

Does anyone have any ideas for sourcing these?

Thanks,

David
 
Hi Phaedrus: I tried to help you by fishing through my (crude) database that includes Japanese sources. Sorry — I can't hit the nail head exactly, but here is what I found:

Toshin Kogyo Co. Ldt [TK]. (Toshin Industries) has a Bi-Polar radial series — 'BPUE' — that ranges from 6.3 Volts to 63 Volts, and from 0.1 uF to 2,200 uF. This series is not designated as audio type specific, but it IS specified as 'long life'. I do not know if there is much of this supply in the USA or where ever you are. TK is fairly common here in Japan, but I only ever see their standard series in local parts bins.

The Nichicon Muse 'ES' series ranges from 6.3 to 25 Volts in 1000uF. There are other capacitance values that range up to 50 volts.

A company called Chokes Unlimited lists an 'EC' series of caps — don't know the maker — which go up to 800uF at 100 Volts. See http://www.chokes.com/capec.htm

I have never made a cap bank of N.P. electrolytics before, but I can't think of how it is anything different than making parallel film types. There is at least enough here to convince me that you DO have a solution. If I were you, I'd start with getting to know what the minimum voltage requirement is, and then start skulking through cap charts to see how you can make a bank/stack for each cap position. The Muse ES series would be a good place to start because they are probably the easiest to get ahold of.
 
Hi Lorne,

Thanks very much for the info, some of those look like they could get me there. I'll give them a look.

Thanks again,

David
 
Tripqzon said:
I recapped my HPM-100's today because of what I've read over time on AK. I have to say that I'm glad I did it.

I was only able to listen for maybe 20 minutes tonight but did notice that they do sound cleaner and more life-like. I'll be able to tell more as time goes on.

I used Solen for the 3uf and 4.4uf replacemants and Auricap for the 0.15uf cap. I also replaced the 10ohm wirewound resistor with a Mills non-inductive resistor. I was able to do both speakers for just under $35.00 with shipping. That's not a bad price imo to do both speakers. All parts purchased from Parts Express.

Paul

Ok, I've been listening to my recapped HPM-100's daily for a week now and have to say that I'm very glad I did. The $35.00 I spent to do the pair was a minimal investment for the improvements in the sound. The edginess I'd been experiencing at certain frequencies in the midrange area, such as certain notes of piano, has smoothed out. I've also noticed a greater separation of the individual instruments of the music.

I had my brother over Friday night to do a recap of his HPM-100's and I put Diana Krall "Live In Paris" in the cdp. He commented on how good it sounded. He said there was nothing lacking in the sound and that each instrument was separated from the other instruments.

His comments made me realize that it wasn't just me wanting to believe that a recap would make a difference, but that it actually did make a difference. And it didn't cost me an arm and a leg to do it.

If you have older speakers and are thinking about a recap, stop thinking about it and do it. You won't regret it.

See 4 posts up to see which caps I used.

Paul
 
Really glad it worked out for you — and for such a low cost. When you start replacing larger values the cost definitely goes up.
 
Just thought I'd post some info from a recent conversation I had with my Dad who is an engineer and shares many of the same sentiments as others here....get the best caps you can find and/or afford.

In my instance, I'm wanting to recap a pair of older Genesis Physics I's. A very simple crossover consisting of one 10uf/50v electrolytic. According to him, the reason most electrolytic's go bad when used in cross-over designs is that because no DC voltage is being applied regularly, they lose their polarization over time....in as little as five years without this DC application.

Another thing he shared with me is that in my case, with the need for a 10uf capacitor, he said that if I were to wire two 20uf in series that it should utlimately give longer life performance. Why, I'm not sure but I'm gonna do it that way.

Mike
 
You might also ask him about the use of a "by-pass" (.015uF or so) capacitor in the network as JBL used it succesfuly. It was suppsed to allow the unltra high freq (+15k) to pass more easily to the tweeter instead of trying to push it all through one big cap. Good info on your part too
DC
 
MikeCh wrote:
According to him, the reason most electrolytic's go bad when used in cross-over designs is that because no DC voltage is being applied regularly, they lose their polarization over time....in as little as five years without this DC application.
Certainly a vital point well taken. Thanks for the report.

I have a request — a favor to ask. Can you ask your father about electroytic capacitors in general — that is caps as they are used in DC environments? What is the minimum voltage required to keep the capacitor healthy and functioning at optimum throughout its intended service life? For example, given a 50 volt capacitor, what would a minimum DC voltage have to be in order to maintain the health of the cap? Does the required voltage vary in some way in direct relation to the rated DCV of the cap or it's capacitance value.

This should perhaps be another thread, but considering how scarce and allusive this information seems to be, it may be the time and place to ask. If this does develope into something larger, I'll consider moving to another thread. Thanks in advance to both you and your Dad for any considered reply.
 
Hi guys,

I asked my Dad to clarify and since I'm a long way from being or understanding engineer-stuff, I'm posting his responses verbatim so as not to miss details.....this is gonna be long :D

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From DC270:
"You might also ask him about the use of a "by-pass" (.015uF or so) capacitor in the network as JBL used it succesfuly. It was suppsed to allow the unltra high freq (+15k) to pass more easily to the tweeter instead of trying to push it all through one big cap."


The short answer is yes. All electrolytic caps of any size have some inherent inductance as well. As the frequency goes higher, it is possible that the capacitor will actually pass thru resonance and become inductive. Generally, if good high quality caps are used, the resonant frequency will be high enough (for audio frequencies up to 20-25kHz) that is not an issue. If there is concern, bypassing the electrolytic with a 0.1uf or so cap will ensure that very high frequencies will still get to the tweeter as they should.
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From lorne:
"I have a request - a favor to ask. Can you ask your father about electroytic capacitors in general - that is caps as they are used in DC environments? What is the minimum voltage required to keep the capacitor healthy and functioning at optimum throughout its intended service life? For example, given a 50 volt capacitor, what would a minimum DC voltage have to be in order to maintain the health of the cap? Does the required voltage vary in some way in direct relation to the rated DCV of the cap or it's capacitance value."


When used in an application where DC is applied, it is usually best to have the voltage rating for the capacitor not more than about 1.5 times the applied DC. There are a couple of reasons for this. (1) The voltage rating of the capacitor is set by the thickness of the dielectric and by the original polarizing voltage at the time of manufacturer. (2) As a capacitor ages the dielectric tends to "adjust" to the applied DC potential. For example, a capacitor that is rated at 50 vdc at the time of manufacturer is used with a DC potential of 15 vdc for an extended period of time. The capacitor will tend to age to a new breakdown potential that is somewhat more than 15 vdc but way below the 50vdc original rating. It might breakdown at around 25vdc. To maintain the original 50vdc rating the capacitor will need to be operated typically within 20% or so of the original rating.

All electrolytic capacitors are "pre-polarized" when new. As the capacitor ages, depending on the quality of the dielectric and application, the dielectric slowly loses its ability to remain polarized. The typical shelf life of good quality caps is measured in several years. If they are used in an application where little or no polarizing voltage is applied, there is nothing to prevent the natural depolarizing. As the caps depolarize, the breakdown voltage drops. Using a cap where just AC is being passed can accelerate the process. If the AC was perfectly symmetrical there would be no contribution to the depolarizing function other than natural aging. However, in the typical audio application the audio is highly asymmetrical. This can result in reverse polarizing currents that further accelerate the demise of the dielectric.
Putting two capacitors back to back, either negative to negative or positive to positive, especially if you also include a pair of back to back diodes across the caps to direct the current flow, can sometimes slow the deterioration. Usually the easiest thing to do is just make sure proper DC voltage is applied or replace the caps from time to time. Years ago, it was common to use oil filled caps. These are not polarity sensitive and don't change with time. Now that oil filled caps are getting harder to find that is sometimes not an option. Once in a while you can find a motor start or run capacitor of the correct value. Those are oil filled but rather costly.

--------

I hope this helps!

Mike
 
Thanks Mike! And please extend our gratitude and appreciation to your father. Cheers! Lorne :thmbsp:
 
Ok, there is typically no DC at all in a crossover, so polarized electrolytics should not be used since they depend on DC to form or re-form the electrolytic. If you must use electrolytics in a crossover, use non-polarized electrolytics. They are sometimes the only practical cap for some very large values of caps usually used in woofer roll-off circuits.

One place to get the non-polarized electrolytics is Parts Express.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=72

Bob Crites
 
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