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Why so much Wattage ?

This thread is a conversation, and like any reasonable conversation it evolved with different points of view and different information.

Including some very, uh, "interesting" speculations regarding the fundamentals of how power amplifiers work.

But I digress. Sorry. I too will bail out, since I no longer own a McIntosh amp.
 
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The calculator is for one amp, one speaker. As I noted in my PM to you, simply add 3dB for a 2nd speaker. Remember that a stereo amp is effectively 2 amps.
Just used the formula you sent me and added 3db for a second speaker and it matched the recommended amp power of the Crown Audio calculator, so apparently the calculator's recommended amp power answer is for a two speakers.
 
I personally enjoy reading other opinions as we expand the number of posters who join the thread, however, we generally post in this thread to support those entering into the McIntosh world whether as a reward for financial success or a treasured gift from a family member.

Now that said I never met Mr. Mac himself, he retired the year I started representing Mac products in 1978. I do understand though he had a tendency to be rather blunt, maybe a bit gruff unlike his right hand man Gow who was much more diplomatic.....

Paraphrasing what I can imagine Mr. McIntosh's reply to this thread.....WHEN WE STARTED this company in 1949 the amps available were CRAP......did not meet the specs they promised us to support our business needs so we decided to do the research to create a amp of our own design that would.

So they bought a machine to wind their own transformers, and then came up with a novel way to wind them which they were able to patent.

Everybody who was anybody bought their amps who depended on quality high performance.

Check out the listing that Roger Russel has listed of all the special builds they did for major players in the world of electronics.

So they abandoned the flea watt amp designs in 1949, their EEs thought there was a better way, and must still do.
 
It doesn't bother me that threads go off topic quickly in this forum as long as they stay friendly. Just look at any forum on AK and you will see this is the norm here or just about any online forum. Normally the McIntosh Forum is one place where you can post without being attacked for posting. I like it this way and plan to keep it that way. It doesn't cost you a dime to be civil to one another. Even if you totally disagree with what someone posts. Remember, the secret to success on any online forum is not to take yourself or your hobby too seriously. :)

So carry on and enjoy your time here. The overall friendliness of this particular forum is reason I have stuck it out as moderator here. I do my best to keep my interference down to only what I feel is necessary.


While I had never posted here before this thread (at least I don't think I have), and will be careful not do so again unless I have a question that is specific to McIntosh equipment, I appreciate your efforts.

I apologize for interpreting the OP's question as one about the relationship of speaker sensitivity and power, rather than speaker sensitivity and McIntosh power. Like GChief, I tend to look at threads based on topic, rather than forum. I will be more careful in the future.

For what it's worth, if you think about his question the way I did, the thread stayed pretty much on topic and with a fairly low level of sniping.

In any case, take care.
 
While I had never posted here before this thread (at least I don't think I have), and will be careful not do so again unless I have a question that is specific to McIntosh equipment, I appreciate your efforts.

I apologize for interpreting the OP's question as one about the relationship of speaker sensitivity and power, rather than speaker sensitivity and McIntosh power. Like GChief, I tend to look at threads based on topic, rather than forum. I will be more careful in the future.

For what it's worth, if you think about his question the way I did, the thread stayed pretty much on topic and with a fairly low level of sniping.

In any case, take care.

There is no need to apologize for anything. While this is mainly a Mac forum there are literally scads of threads here that can be called "Off Topic" if one felt like it. No big deal to me. The idea is to present a place that is open and friendly and you want to hang out in. Owning McIntosh equipment is not a prerequisite to be here. All our audio journeys are different and should be acknowledged as such.
 
While I had never posted here before this thread
You should, my post earlier wasn't to put anyone off, but to bring attention to you all just going in circles and the OPs questions were around mac amps. And really the answer to the OPs question is that mac makes powerful amps because they will work with a wider range of speakers.

Some of you where just going round and round on how little power you can possibly get away with to drive a speaker. That really isn't mac philosophy with any new amps as there isn't a big selection of supper high efficient speakers sold today. Back in the 50s and 60s was another story so mac had 25, 30, 40, and 50 watt amps, today a mac buyer isn't interested in that.

I even wondered why mac brought back the MC75 tube mono blocks. They already had the MC 275 and if you wanted only 75 tube watts you where covered. If you wanted mono blocks you can bridge the 275 and buy two of them and have 180 WPC. But the 75s your stuck with them the way they are and there is no way to get more power or do anything different. At the time I think the MC275 was $5500, each MC 75 was $3500 x 2 $7000. As such I don't see many owners of the MC75 because it just didn't make sense.

However I do know of lots of owners of 2 X MC275, they have the added power of 180 WPC and also have the benefit of channel separation of mono blocks. It's a added cost over the MC 75 mono blocks at $11,000 but thats a lot more power and easier to mach to more speakers and far more versatility.

Just recently Mac has two "Life Style" amps that are 50 watts but are something more geared to youth in apartment city living. Other than those two tube amps mac doesn't make much under 200 watts because the speaker market dictates the power we need.

People don't want to buy a new 25 watt amp costing $5000 and up and can't use it with many new speakers. When investing $5000-$10,000 for a mac amp you wan't it to last many years and to be able to use it with any speakers you want to.

I quoted Mike because thats how we all feel in this forum. As he said this forum is generally argument free but I'v seen these topics go round and round on the site. They didn't get anywhere and only ended up offending people, I guess my comment this morning offended some and that wasn't the intent of it.

There is no need to apologize for anything.

Owning McIntosh equipment is not a prerequisite to be here.
 
The shared circuitry between the MC275 and MC75 resulted in substantial savings compared with designing the MC75 from scratch.

Since there's a market for moderate-power monoblocks, the decision to revive the MC75 just makes good business sense.
 
Yes sir, I like a bit of funk, I think it has a close relationship to rock which is my primary interest.....
I was hitchhiking to Boston from Albany, back in the winter of 1971, and Parliament's roadies picked me up on the Massachusetts Turnpike.
It was a sunny, but brutally cold day. (Around - 6º F.) I was off to visit a lady friend who lived in the 'Back Bay' area of Boston.
The two gentleman in the truck were very engaging, and shall we say, very accommodating.
I left the truck in somewhat of an expanded state of mind, as opposed to when I first entered the vehicle.
I was quite happy to be close to my destination, and out of that oppressive cold! The rest of the day was ....wonderful......
 
I was hitchhiking to Boston from Albany, back in the winter of 1971, and Parliament's roadies picked me up on the Massachusetts Turnpike.
It was a sunny, but brutally cold day. (Around - 6º F.) I was off to visit a lady friend who lived in the 'Back Bay' area of Boston.
The two gentleman in the truck were very engaging, and shall we say, very accommodating.
I left the truck in somewhat of an expanded state of mind, as opposed to when I first entered the vehicle.
I was quite happy to be close to my destination, and out of that oppressive cold! The rest of the day was ....wonderful......
I love that story!! What a fantastic experience!!

I'm rocking out with Humble Pie today whilst I work, Smokin', Eat it, Thunderbox, and a couple of great live albums, they were a great live band...

I am totally using a decent amount of horsepower in my system, the Flea-watt amps would have melted down hours ago!!
 
I mentioned last week that I would set up my ST-70 in place of my usual 200 WPC amp. I know, tube vs solid state adds one more variable, but at least it's in favor of the 35 watt amp. At any rate, my power hungry 4 ohm ADS M12 towers do sound great on the 'little' 35 WPC Dynaco. I could tell it was a different amp from the first few seconds of the first track that I played. But how was the power vs the much more powerful amp? In a few words, it was great, much of the time; other times, not so much. On vocals or other music with minimal bass and dynamics, it sounded fine.
When I switched to some with more bass and dynamics, I thought something was not quite right with the Dynaco. I checked the bias, as I know that I can get more distortion if it's not correct, and it was right on. I turned the volume down a bit, and it sounded good again. I suppose I was hearing distortion on the ST-70, which I must say was not as bad as SS distortion. It was like there was a jagged vs smooth sound, if that makes sense. This was on day one of using this amp, and I experienced the same on multiple occasions. It seemed to occur around 86-90dB or so... lower when there was more / louder bass. I know that the amp I normally use will go well over 105dB without distortion, and probably higher, if I pushed it.
I can repeat this with a 35 watt SS receiver, but I can't imagine that it'd fare any better. I also have a subwoofer in this setup, and the crossover is generally set at 42Hz. I raised it to 60 to allow the Dynaco to play louder without distortion. I was going to try it with the subwoofer bypassed, but I forgot to check that. Normally, the big ADS towers do fine without the sub; I use it since I have it and it's a decent one, and I find that I do get a bit more bass without it sounding overdone by using the sub with a really low crossover point.
My conclusion from a very causal 'test' is that a smaller amp can sound good, as I experienced. However, I have to balance the volume and material, as I cannot play much of what I listen to at levels I like with the smaller amp. The Parasound SS amp sounds really clear, effortless, and just slightly warm all the time, no matter what I play, at whatever levels I can reasonably handle. If I could use only one amp with my current speakers, I'd go with the higher powered one. If I listened to a different type of music, or had more efficient speakers, I'd likely be happy with the lower powered Dynaco. Since I don't have only one amp, and I can use both, I'll find a way to configure my setup to allow for easier switching between the two (if I can physically get them on the same shelf).
 
Well, 14 pages into your question looks like you've had every technical aspect, personal experience and guess talked about.

Confused?
 
I mentioned last week that I would set up my ST-70 in place of my usual 200 WPC amp. I know, tube vs solid state adds one more variable, but at least it's in favor of the 35 watt amp. At any rate, my power hungry 4 ohm ADS M12 towers do sound great on the 'little' 35 WPC Dynaco. I could tell it was a different amp from the first few seconds of the first track that I played. But how was the power vs the much more powerful amp? In a few words, it was great, much of the time; other times, not so much. On vocals or other music with minimal bass and dynamics, it sounded fine.
When I switched to some with more bass and dynamics, I thought something was not quite right with the Dynaco. I checked the bias, as I know that I can get more distortion if it's not correct, and it was right on. I turned the volume down a bit, and it sounded good again. I suppose I was hearing distortion on the ST-70, which I must say was not as bad as SS distortion. It was like there was a jagged vs smooth sound, if that makes sense. This was on day one of using this amp, and I experienced the same on multiple occasions. It seemed to occur around 86-90dB or so... lower when there was more / louder bass. I know that the amp I normally use will go well over 105dB without distortion, and probably higher, if I pushed it.
I can repeat this with a 35 watt SS receiver, but I can't imagine that it'd fare any better. I also have a subwoofer in this setup, and the crossover is generally set at 42Hz. I raised it to 60 to allow the Dynaco to play louder without distortion. I was going to try it with the subwoofer bypassed, but I forgot to check that. Normally, the big ADS towers do fine without the sub; I use it since I have it and it's a decent one, and I find that I do get a bit more bass without it sounding overdone by using the sub with a really low crossover point.
My conclusion from a very causal 'test' is that a smaller amp can sound good, as I experienced. However, I have to balance the volume and material, as I cannot play much of what I listen to at levels I like with the smaller amp. The Parasound SS amp sounds really clear, effortless, and just slightly warm all the time, no matter what I play, at whatever levels I can reasonably handle. If I could use only one amp with my current speakers, I'd go with the higher powered one. If I listened to a different type of music, or had more efficient speakers, I'd likely be happy with the lower powered Dynaco. Since I don't have only one amp, and I can use both, I'll find a way to configure my setup to allow for easier switching between the two (if I can physically get them on the same shelf).
And all this is the reason I have at least three amps/speaker setups in my main system. Some for low volume and different music, some for other music at low or high volumes tubes and SS.

If I had to pick only one setup? MC501, 500 watt mono blocks and my JBL L250s, they do everything right.
 
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