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Why we need tone controls and/or equalizers

Zygmo said:
blackfly...I need at least a little more bass on virtualy every recording, on anyones stereo, with any speakers I have ever heard, at normal listening volume. (I probably wouldn't have to say that if I listened to RAP, though:D). My hearing has always tested excellent, so I don't have an explanation for this. Mids, and highs are normally not a problem.
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Maybe your room eats it up. It does happen. The fact you find it the case on ALL (or most) recordings means, to me, that it is not a recording issue but room/gear related. Maybe the speakers are too far out, you are in a node.....

Try moving them around. Winter does not lend itself to much outdoor activity....
 
Zygmo said:
blackfly...I need at least a little more bass on virtualy every recording, on anyones stereo, with any speakers I have ever heard, at normal listening volume. (I probably wouldn't have to say that if I listened to RAP, though:D). My hearing has always tested excellent, so I don't have an explanation for this. Mids, and highs are normally not a problem.
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Zygmo.....is your room treated in any way?
 
blackfly said:
Maybe your room eats it up. It does happen. The fact you find it the case on ALL (or most) recordings means, to me, that it is not a recording issue but room/gear related. Maybe the speakers are too far out, you are in a node.....

Try moving them around. Winter does not lend itself to much outdoor activity....
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Thanks, blackfly...but I have Corner Horns, and the room was designed for them. Wouldn't work anywhere but a corner. It is not a room or equipment problem...it is in my head, I am sure, as I am rarely satisfied with flat bass anywhere.
But, it has to be really GOOD bass, which I have achieved. I built our room with a concrete floor, and poured-in-place concrete boxes underneath in the corners for 15" subs. I built 3" risers under the Corner Horns, to get them up off the subs. Concrete block walls with 2" foam board glued on the outside, 2" airspace, and brick veneer. Metal insulated doors outside and inside, 3 double pane, small windows, sheetrock glued on. No vibrations inside, no neighbor complaints outside!:banana:

Even when not tri-amping the Horns, and with a dedicated 200 wpc amp for the subs, we found out we couldn't even hear the subs! :lmao: So, they are just disconnected.
 
SWL3600 said:
Zygmo.....is your room treated in any way?
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SWL....considering WAF, and the fact that she loves the Horns now too, I would not change anything in our room or system. She decorates like she wants....I listen like I want! :thmbsp: Life is good.
 
JonL said:
. . . it is very possible to have spectacular sound without feeling the need to adjust equalization or tone controls to suit individual recordings. There's something about the sound I have in my rig that really transcends worries about frequency balance. It just sounds GOOD. Really good.
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I've already written that I find tone controls useful in my present living situation, and I wouldn't want to be without them, but I agree that frequency balance is just one aspect of sound quality, and not necessarily the most important. Martin Colloms wrote about a preamp he owned in the late 1980's, the Cello Palette, with its six, stepped, repeatable tone controls, and how it provided for substantial improvement in listener satisfaction (convincingly demonstrated to him by co-designer Mark Levinson). He wrote that he still has many recordings with Palette calibration settings written on their sleeves. But he goes on to say that a new preamp came along, without tone controls, that "supplied substantially better sound quality – better focus, transparency, dynamics, and tonal purity. The benefits of the tone control system was finally forgone in the insatiable quest for ever higher fidelity."
 
My half pence; I run my set ups flat or darn close to it 99% of the time. I do like to have the option to tweak those controls though if the mood strikes. "Kickstart My Heart" without the loudness button engaged or a slight bass boost just wouldn't cut it.:D
 
Zygmo said:
But, you know...he has a point. Look back on your quest for the perfect sound. Be honest. Did it go something like this: My music is just too bassy. Think I willl try some__________speakers. ALLLLLright.....this is nice. But, wait a minute...that amp is too bright, just doesn't have any warmth! Think I will try a _____________________amp.
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For my T-amp (no tone controls) that is certainly how it worked. Took me a couple of sets of speakers to find some that worked well (all sounded nice but the Yamahas seemed to bring out the best in the amp and made the music sound like I remembered it, with all the detail and with excellent soundstage).
 
Zygmo said:
Look back on your quest for the perfect sound. Be honest. Did it go something like this: My music is just too bassy. Think I willl try some__________speakers. ALLLLLright.....this is nice. But, wait a minute...that amp is too bright, just doesn't have any warmth! Think I will try a _____________________amp.
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Yes. That's it exactly. Myself and others have put our systems together to deliver a fantastic overall sound without needing any adjustments via tone controls or EQ. This is indeed done by matching equipment, room and music to all work together as a system. Once that's set, no need for adjustments.

I decided on my particular amp, for instance, by taking home 5 different loaners for about 4 days each then buying the one that had the best synergy with everything else.

All that said, I still need to use tone controls if/when I put a "vintage" receiver in it's place, so there's something to the age/quality of the gear in my experience also.

Anyway, I'm starting to get tired of explaining to people who can't image life without tone controls why I don't need or want them. At this point, I'll leave you all to believe it or not. Although I will say again, we're not talking about Big Foot or UFO's here even though it feels like we are.
 
I went to the Art Institute here the other day, and because I really like the color yellow, I put on some yellow glasses and went to the Impressionists exhibit.

Monet never looked better! As long as I like it, that's all that counts....
 
SWL3600 said:
If someone here has a system with absolutely no "tweakability" whatsoever.....and you can go from string music to Metallica without doing anything and it sounds impressive.......I would sincerely like to hear it.
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Not sure I mind taking this thread in a slightly different direction at this point, hope you guys don't mind either.

If you want to go fast around corners, get a sports car. Want to haul kids to soccer practice, get a minivan. Go off roading, get a jeep.
Else you'll end up with one of those goofy crossover vehicles that will do all that, but not do any of it exceptionally well.

I know what I like to listen to (80+ % of the time), how loud I like to listen, and what I like to hear from my system. I don't care how well it reproduces music I don't listen to any more than I care how well it reproduces train whistles, or any more than the guy with no kids cares that his sports car can't haul the team to Dairy Queen after the game. I have optomized my system to reproduce the music I listen to at the volumes I listen to exceptionally well. The "other" music and volumes it will do, but not exceptionally well. I am more than willing to pay that small price for being rewarded the vast majority of the times I fire up my rig.

Just pointing this out because I have always believed that the "Good systems will play all music well" concept is not true, at least not for me.
 
Yes, gewoonmaf....I think most people who stay in the hobby long enough goes through the same process you did. I certainly went though numerous combinations.
But, to be honest with you, I did not find (other than with speakers, of course) huge differences between components. With some exceptions, to me a tuner is a tuner. Sonic wise, (and with more exceptions) the same goes for turntables, CD players and RtRs. In those three components I do have preferences in the lay-out and controls each one has, especiallly the RtRs.

Preamps, and Amps are a different story. I went through the minimilist to the Airplane Cockpit type preamps. I like several of both.

Amps. I believe in power. Gimmie watts. The thing about high-power amps is: claiming to be high-power...and being high-power is not always the case. Mr. Carver comes to mind...he had examples of both.

I notice you settled on Yamaha speakers. I have noticed many people on this forum like Yamaha. I have listened to many speakers through the years, but cannot remember ever listening to any of those. Guess I missed something, huh?!
 
That explains a lot to me, sebrof. I did not know that, when we talked before, about you having basically a certain volume, playing certain music.

If one does not go from playing Rock at near concert levels, to playing folk music at small room levels....and everything in between, makes it easier to optimize your system.:music:

Your comparisons reminded me of the Quadrophonic days. We would go to a stereo store to listen to the new equipment, and all they ever played on the Quad systems was train whistles, going left to right, back to front! I had a Marantz Quad amp once, but never had the chance to really utilize it's four channels. That puppy would sure run a wall of speakers though!:banana:
 
I rarely participate in these type threads...Generally they start out with a few good concepts, but often they gravitate towards snobbery.

IMHO there's too much attitude here that boils down to "You may think you need tone controls but I don't because my gear is BETTER than yours"

Which is similar to "What--you can't hear the difference? Obviously your ears aren't as golden as mine!"

I don't need those kind of attitudes, thank you.
 
I'm required to make compromises with my system because of the variety of music I listen to. I've been listening to classic rock my whole life.....gets old after a while but I often revisit it after a few days of smooth jazz. The next day might be some thumping electronic music.....then right back to Diana Krall.

My system does it all well.....but does it better with the ability to do some tweaking on the fly be it bi-amping, tone controls, using a subwoofer or whatever. Again..... my room, my ears, my gear and my tastes. I need/want some flexibilty when switching to different genres of music.

In all honesty, I don't touch anything 80 percent of the time. I really don't like fussing over it. I'd rather kick back and enjoy the tunes but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. :smoke:
 
Here we are 19 pages later on a thread that should have lasted for only maybe a single page.

I have opined for months now that these kind of threads would start occurring with more frequency. I recognize there signature. It starts with the obligatory flame infested topic Du-jour . At this point I should like everyone to reread the original posting.

There were no attacks by the anti tone control, golden eared, audiophiliacs. If anything, one can clearly see the opposite is more likely true. I keep seeing over and over again the tone control-less having to defend there position, and there response is usually " do want you want".

To the moderators.... This is why you have a thinking out loud category. I dont mean to be rude or telling anyone what to do but these impassioned debates rarely do anything but start wars.

Myself, i am quite thick skinned, and i dont mind being taken to task.

I just think audiokarma is better than 19 pages of discussion that in the end is circular and changes no ones mind. Just when you think you get somewhere, someone new post that didnt read the whole thread and starts the whole shebang off all over again!

To anyone that reads this post as flaming, or hostile, snobby, or controversial, im sorry. I have tried to use the English language very plainly. If i was speaking this my voice would sound like honey in a hot cup of tea.

Now i am off to enjoy my festivities. I hope the conversation doesnt vear off to politics around the table because i will skewer someone with a turkey bone.

Enjoy your day!
 
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