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Yamaha M-5000

Specs or no I still want to hear a full 5000 set as well as a clean C-1/B-1 combo. I will happily continue on the road of Yamaha.
 
Asmodeus2112 said:
Yes, not just Yamaha's designs. Hence Nelson Pass's "The First Watt" eh?
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The first watt THD of First Watt amps isn't necessarily any better and may actually be worse than other amps (by the numbers). Check the graphs. Measurements aren't inherently the end-all, be-all as we know but, by the numbers, people shouldn't presume they're going to be more "clean".

The first watt of a First Watt amp might be its best watt, but it's not necessarily better than the first watt of a non-First Watt amp.

(Edited to try to be more clear.)
 
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whoaru99 said:
The first watt THD of First Watt amps isn't necessarily any better and may actually be worse than other amps by the numbers. Check the graphs. That isn't inherently the end-all, be-all as we know but, again, by the numbers people shouldn't presume they're going to be more "clean".
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Yessir. Wasn't vouching for his amps, just recognizing the point.
 
808_state said:
Specs or no I still want to hear a full 5000 set as well as a clean C-1/B-1 combo. I will happily continue on the road of Yamaha.
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if you got that Centennial set tuned and enjoying it, do not be surprised if you will not be in WOOW when you hear the 5000, but you might get hooked on the Vfet set and there will be no turning back after that...like moving to the dark side and not be able to get away :D
 
Asmodeus2112 said:
The OP presented the M-5000 for discussion. As a long time user and fan of Yamaha gear my 2¢ is that I am disappointed that a 10k ToTL amp from Yamaha doesn't have more power..
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But as per my link - it does!! It produces 145W per channel into 8 Ohms, 256W per channel into 4 Ohms and can manage short term dynamic power outputs of 167W, 317W, 590W and 995W into 8, 4, 2 and 1 Ohm loads.

Exactly how much more power do you want from it?!
 
Beobloke said:
But as per my link - it does!! It produces 145W per channel into 8 Ohms, 256W per channel into 4 Ohms and can manage short term dynamic power outputs of 167W, 317W, 590W and 995W into 8, 4, 2 and 1 Ohm loads.

Exactly how much more power do you want from it?!
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More power at 8 Ohms would be my guess...
 
So are the speakers the only bright spot in the new 5000 lineup ? I think the turntable is a disappointment with that straight arm/headshell (someone else can grind their needle and records with the zero offset setup, not me) and belt drive. it's sure not going to get me to part with my GT2000.

How is the preamp ?

jblnut
 
rottalpha said:
if you got that Centennial set tuned and enjoying it, do not be surprised if you will not be in WOOW when you hear the 5000, but you might get hooked on the Vfet set and there will be no turning back after that...like moving to the dark side and not be able to get away :D
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Get thee back demon! Haha...resisting the V-Fet urge all the time. Totally agree they should revive them. Can't wait to get my CX-10000 over here and then next first world problem is buying an HX-10000 (gotta stay out of the doghouse for now with the live-in boss if you know what I mean).
 
jblnut said:
So are the speakers the only bright spot in the new 5000 lineup ? I think the turntable is a disappointment with that straight arm/headshell (someone else can grind their needle and records with the zero offset setup, not me) and belt drive. it's sure not going to get me to part with my GT2000.

How is the preamp ?

jblnut
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The preamp is superb, particularly the phono stage. As is the turntable which, at no point during my time with it, ever came even close to "grinding my needle and records". My GT-2000 is standard and I would say the GT-5000 just had the edge on it.
 
Beobloke said:
The preamp is superb, particularly the phono stage. As is the turntable which, at no point during my time with it, ever came even close to "grinding my needle and records". My GT-2000 is standard and I would say the GT-5000 just had the edge on it.
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Tracking error is tracking error - period. It's not going to destroy anything on a single play, but I would bet any amount of money that the stylus on a GT5000 will not last nearly as long as it would on a GT2000.

All of this is ancient history in the vinyl world. These problems have long been solved - geometry is geometry. I'm glad you enjoyed your time with the GT5000, but that arm is just wrong.

jblnut
 
Beobloke said:
But as per my link - it does!! It produces 145W per channel into 8 Ohms, 256W per channel into 4 Ohms and can manage short term dynamic power outputs of 167W, 317W, 590W and 995W into 8, 4, 2 and 1 Ohm loads.

Exactly how much more power do you want from it?!
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The review you posted is very positive in respect to power. Two other reviews posted in this thread were critical of the power. So a losing ratio from the reviews at hand, but we all know that the value of reviews is very low, and the quality and earnestness of the reviewer varies greatly.

My gripe here is more about rating the power at a higher THD. It appears that this is the modern way, perhaps due to the mass marketing of AVRs and the push to claim as much rated power as possible to separate their products on the shelves at Best Buy? (Anybody else disappointed with Yamaha AVRs lately?) While there is credence to the idea that the quest for low THD in the 80's may have come at the cost of musicality, claiming that the M-5000 is a higher THD amp in my opinion is not backed up by the spec sheet rating. The 100W@ .07 THD is simply due to the fact that the standard has changed. If the power was going to be spec'd at .007, then it would be around 90W. And the standard that the vintage amps that many of us know and love was usually to pick the point to call the maximum power before or right at the nearly 90 degree turn as the amp starts clipping, not after it like they seem to do today. So, to me that is not enough power from a statement amp from Yamaha. If I am wrong about this change in how power is measured I am happy to learn and change my opinion accordingly.

Question to the experts here, is there a limit to the amount of power an amp can produce due to the MOSFETS? I've read quite a few great threads about the MX-2000, and AFAIK it's the only Yamaha with MOSFET outputs. The bigger MX-10000 went to BJT outputs, is that due to something inherent in how MOSFETs work, or do they simply not manufacture appropriate MOSFETs for higher power amps?

I see that there are service manuals available for the M-5000. Can anyone discuss the differences between the current generation of Yamaha MOSFET designs vs. the MX-2000? The MX-2000 is rated at 130W @ .005 THD. Is if fair to say it could be rated at 10-20 more watts @ .07% THD?

I know I sound immature and redundant on this power thing. And I completely understand that the doubling of the power for lower resistances is impressive and should help it drive difficult speaker loads. I just find it very curious that for Yamaha a 10k 100W amp is uncharacteristic. This to me seems the story of this generation of MOSFET amps from Yamaha. Not that they changed their designs in favor of better musicality at the cost of THD, but that they changed their designs in search of musicality at the cost of the power their amps have traditionally produced.

I have been pondering the target user for the M-5000. With the wealth gap and the two economies it appears that may companies are tailoring products for the ultra rich and then other products for the rest of us. But the M-5000 isn't expensive enough or powerful enough for the ultra rich demographic I think. I can't see someone selecting it to power their Magicos. So I guess it is targeted at us who were alive in the golden era of stereo, and now have the means to pay 20k for an amp and pre? As I have already stated that is more of a stretch than I am willing to make, at least at my current understanding of this generation of Yamaha amps. But it is interesting that the new generation of amps from Yamaha are these MOSFET designs. Dr. Ears opinions of the A-S3200 is impressive. And while he has a dog in the fight, I respect his opinion. I think my next steps are going to be to research these various new Yamaha amps with MOSFET and see if there is something a bit more reasonable on the value scale that I can hunt down. That and wait for some other AKer to take the plunge on the 5000s and post some threads and stereo porn.
 
Hi,
My understanding here is that Yamaha is using less (global) feedback on these amps. Therefore, the THD numbers are a tad higher than in the old days where they used gobs of interstage negative feedback. I run the A-S2100 which also tested at around 106WPC @ 8z in a Polish audio magazine. I once read a review on the A-S3000 where the designer admitted accepting a slightly higher distortion spec over the use of more feedback in the output stage. I unfortunately cannot find it now, perhaps another member knows it?

As far as the M5000, I don't believe I would opt for it at its price point. Even as a longtime Yamaha fan, I'd be looking at Luxman or, spending a little more and getting an Esoteric at the over-10k price point.
 
Well, a modern Yamaha competitor to this fancy M-5000 might be considered the "Twin Monaural Construction" MX-D1 (less fancy, sort of the modern evolution of the MX-1). It has a lot more power for the power hungry, and some impressive specs (if you can get over it's 23lb lightweight):

- Solid-state stereo power amplifier with class-D "digital" output stage operating at 352.8kHz.
- Maximum output power: 500Wpc into 4 and 8 ohms (24dBW, 27dBW, respectively) at 0.1% THD.
- Frequency response: 1Hz–100kHz, ±3dB; 20Hz–20kHz, ±0.5dB.
- THD at 10W/1kHz: <0.003%.
- Input sensitivity: 1.3V.
- Input impedance: 25k ohms.
- Damping factor: 200 (equivalent to an output impedance of 0.04 ohms), no frequency specified.
- Channel separation: 100dB.
- Dynamic range: 120dB or greater (IHF-A, low-pass filter at 20kHz).
- Standby power consumption: <0.1W.

Dimensions: 17 1/8 "(439mm) W by 2 7/8" (78mm) H by 17 3/16" (440mm) D. Weight: 23 lbs (10.4kg).
Price: $4999.95

https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/405yamaha/index.html

2884-MX-D1.jpg

33628256700_eab02ce44c_b.jpg
 
All I can tell you is that on these Focal monsters, the bass was much better (more weight, deeper and more controlled) with the A-S3000 than with the MX-1, despite the lower nominal power output.
Would like to have the opportunity to listen to a MX-D1.
 
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