• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Yamaha preamp. Best choice?

H

Hifibythekg

Super Member
Looking to upgrade my amplification. Recapped a CR1020 and love it’s sound in my second system.

Consequently, in my main system I’m now thinking of getting the best sounding Yamaha preamp I can. So C4, C2a, or CX1000, or other? Happy to do recapping.

Also, what’s the best Yamaha power amp to attach?

And is there a non-Yamaha power amp (read: under the radar comparableperformance but less expensive) that anyone could recommend?

Btw, this combo would be replacing, and would hopefully substantially outperform, a Rotel RA1412.

Speakers are Celestion Ditton 66’s, recapped.

All advice gratefully accepted.., thanks.

P.S.
Sources:
Chord Hugo for CD and streaming.
Systemdek/Akito/Shure M55 ED, vinyl.

Grateful for any advice.., thanks.


P.S. This same thread posted in SS just now but thought this forum more relevant, apologies.
 
Register to hide this ad
I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle. If you're going for vintage equipment, and going into it looking for specific items, you're either going to have to wait a long time for a deal to pop up for pay a top price. Instead of looking for something specific, just keep an eye out for what pieces happen to become available, then check to see if it will suit your needs. That is where the real bargains come from.

With that said, there certainly are some pieces worth keeping an eye out for. I really like that the C-70, C-80, and C-85 come with a second set of pre-outs that are inverted. They allow you to bridge amps that don't have any native way of being bridged, or even invert one channel on a non-bridged amp to squeeze a bit more out of the power-supply. I use a C-80 and my entire system is practically built around what can be done using those inverted pre-outs. The C-80 and C-85 also have variable loudness, which might not be everyone's cup of tea, but IMO significantly more useful than the more standard "loudness" toggle switche or button found on most other units.

A lot of good power amp deals can come from Yamaha Pro amps. Many still latch onto the idea that pro amps are somehow inferior to amps intended for home usage. For some brands, that might even be true. Thankfully Yamaha has a long history of making some truly superb pro amplifiers that are absolutely fantastic for home usage. In many cases they can be had for bargain prices because of the undeserved reputation pro amps tend to have.
 

Attachments

  • c80invert.jpg
    c80invert.jpg
    41.7 KB · Views: 58
  • c80invertBridge.jpg
    c80invertBridge.jpg
    63 KB · Views: 57
Excellent Chris, this was the sort of advice I was hoping I might obtain from the institution that is AK. I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post.

Actually, the guidance you offered in your first paragraph is exactly the route I’ve followed over previous decades. However, thanks to my intimate involvement with the Yamaha CR1020’s recapping and my happiness with the resulting sound, I think that for my main system a Yamaha pre amp is what I’d like to get to upgrade my main system. Interesting to hear about the C 70, 80, 85 offering the inversion output which is new to me and could be very helpful. However, the C4 can be modified internally to do this too I believe? (Avionic, is this correct?)

For the power section, I might first try using the Rotel RA1214’s power section decoupled. It’s dual mono and has plenty of power but I imagine that a dedicated power amp or pro power amp will be able to improve things much more than this would?

So many people have talked up the sound quality of the C4, but if a bargain comes along in any of the other Yamaha preamp models I think I’ll take it. Kenwood Basic C2 is also recommended but I’m guessing that that’s a complete shelf down below the Yamahas?

Main question now.. are there any other brands and models of power or pro power amps that you know of that would work really well with one of these Yamaha pre amps?

You’ve probably seen this link before, but it gets one thinking..

http://matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

I’m not looking at power for greater volume, just more grip and control, especially with regard to the bass (Ditton 66’s have a 12 inch bass as well as a bass reflex cone) along with better resolution. Vintage or newer, not fussed, whatever’s good. An under the radar tank would be just great.. Avionic, you must have come across some surprising but well matched models/pairings at some point? Are there any specifications on the power amp that I should try to look out for to facilitate a better match? And with regards to the Yamaha pro power amps, are there any specific models I can put on my wish list? I really have no idea on what to look for on the power amp side of things.

Thanks again and look forward to hearing.

And thanks Avionic for the mischievous C-1/B-1 suggestion : )
... will be interesting to see how close I can get to that presumed sound quality with only a fraction of the budget..
 
Hifibythekg said:
And with regards to the Yamaha pro power amps, are there any specific models I can put on my wish list? I really have no idea on what to look for on the power amp side of things.
Click to expand...

The Yamaha P2200 and PC2002M are solid choices for ~240wpc into 8 ohms. They have huge toroidal transformers inside, large passive heatsinks on the sides, and nice looking meters up front. Alternatively The P2201 is the same as the P2200, and the PC2002 is the same as the PC2002M, but lack the meters. The Yamaha M-2 home amplifier is closely related to the design of these units. These models are pretty popular in the vintage community so you sometimes see inflated prices, making them less of a deal. On the flip side, they were so popular that you still come across studios, old movie theaters, etc selling these amps very cheap. Deals can still be had. I run 4 P2200 / P2201 amps, bridged in pairs using the inverted pre-outs on my C-80. Bridged, they are good for up to about ~700wpc into 8 ohms.

For even better deals, you can check out amps like the P2700 and P3500. They are both good for 350wpc into 8 ohms. The only real downside is that the heatsinks are internal and they have fans. The fans are temperature controlled and generally only turn on when you are asking a lot out of the amp - at which point the music will probably be too loud to hear the fan. I don't think the fans are a big deal, but for some people, that automatically disqualifies these units. That's part of the reason why you can find such good deals on them. To say that these are durable and rock-solid is sort of an understatement. I use a P3500 to power a pair of 4-ohm passive sealed subwoofers (The amp does about 500wpc into 4 ohms). I can squeeze a bit more power out of it by running one channel inverted (using the C-80). My sealed subwoofers are very inefficient, so even at 500wpc+ I still push the P3500 to the edge of clipping (sometimes beyond) on a regular basis. A lesser amp would have probably gone up in flames if subjected to the abuse that I put my P3500 through, yet it just keeps on trucking.

There are plenty of other good models out there also, but just tossing out some examples.

A few pics. From left to right, Yamaha M-2, Yamaha P3500, Yamaha P2200

P3500_1.jpg

P3500_2.jpg

P3500_3.jpg
 
Last edited:
Thanks Chris, that’s really great and gives me something to go on in the realm of Yamaha pro/power amps. Are there any specs (or components) that one should especially look out for that often suggest a better sound quality from the power amp (e.g high damping factor, or whatever..?)
 
Wow, cool stuff, I can't really compete. But, I love my C-4. I have C-80s as well, and I like the variable loudness, but somehow I usually put the C-4 back into action. I suppose the way up from the C-4 is to a C-2 of some flavor. Since budget seems to be a concern, which is for me as well, I think the C-4 is tough to beat.
 
Thanks Asmodeus and Gustav, the additional reviews and experiences are really helpful in getting to know which models and combinations are likely to be good/satisfying choices. Love the look of the PC2002m.
My CR1020 is doing such a good job it’s hard to imagine what the next jump up in sound quality is going to sound like. I might start by adding a power amp which could then also be used with the future purchase of a Yamaha pre?
 
Do you need a phono stage? The price for Yamaha preamps vary greatly based on the phono stage quality. I’ve owned several of them and settled on the C-2x and B-2 combination. This combination is expensive enough but I guess if price is no object the top of the pyramid for bragging rights on vintage Yamaha would have to go to the C-1, B-1 combination.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Stoutblock and Beobloke.
I wasn’t aware of the phono‘s capability /presence having such a strong effect on price. Perhaps one should try to obtain the ‘best’ preamp and add a separate phono amp at some point when a good opportunity comes along.
Am I right in thinking that the preamp provides the interpretation of the music.. and the power amp provides the physical impact of the sound...
If anyone has any good quotes that succinctly describe the separate contributions or pre and power it would be helpful to hear them. Thanks.
 
I've had the opportunity to play with just about all of the yamaha pre-amps. Including the C-1..The best bang for the buck in my book is a reconditioned upgraded C-70. Inverted outputs and phono direct(DISC DIRECT)..

Working on modifying a C-4 with inverted outputs..:naughty:
 
stoutblock said:
bragging rights on vintage Yamaha would have to go to the C-1, B-1 combination
Click to expand...
hi Stout, you get way more than bragging rights with this combo ;)

Beobloke said:
If you want a phono stage, then I'd go C-4 or C-2a. The C-1 is a lovely idea but it doesn't handle MC cartridges.
Click to expand...
true but you would want to stay with a separate phono stage...when talking about true separates
704825-ff43a2ef-yamaha_ha1_mc_cartridge_amplifier.jpg
 
Hifibythekg said:
Thanks Stoutblock and Beobloke.
I wasn’t aware of the phono‘s capability /presence having such a strong effect on price. Perhaps one should try to obtain the ‘best’ preamp and add a separate phono amp at some point when a good opportunity comes along.
Am I right in thinking that the preamp provides the interpretation of the music.. and the power amp provides the physical impact of the sound...
If anyone has any good quotes that succinctly describe the separate contributions or pre and power it would be helpful to hear them. Thanks.
Click to expand...

You are going to get many opinions on this question. From my perspective: Assuming your ears are good and you have a decent listing room. The speakers have the single biggest impact on the potential of your system. Consider the amplifier selection being driven by the speaker selection. Certain speakers sound their best with certain amplifiers. Probably the most important synergy in your system. Once you have the speaker and amp right you need a pre-amplifier that won't screw up the signal from the source. It needs to be clean, clean, clean. All the source switching needs to be solid and high quality. Other conveniences like tape monitor loops, tone controls, and poor phono stages can easily deteriorate an otherwise solid performing pre-amplifier. To get this all right can cost some coin. Realize that if you don't need the gain or functions of a control pre-amplifier, like with a high output CD player or DAC, you can do a lot worse than just using a high quality passive attenuator between them and an amp. Less non-value added circuits in the signal path can be a good thing.

Most of these older higher end Yamaha pre-amplifers have very good phono stages but you can easily do better with a separate phono stage. You can also easily do a lot worse...

Then there are tube pre-amplifiers which are my personal preference but totally a different subject...
 
Thanks everyone. The passive attenuator for the pre does sound excellent on paper, can’t fault the logic if one has a good quality DAC/CD player source. Would appreciate any opinions where experience has provided a different viewpoint..
Interesting also to hear another vote for the C70 when optimised. So, seems to be between this and the C4, precluding a bargain C1000x, C2x etc. Fair comment?
Thanks Stoutblock for your advice, for what it’s worth I have Celestion Ditton 66’s as my speakers. Some have recommended class A Sugden amplification for these but I love how my CR1020 has made a pair of B and O 5700’s sound (which use mostly the same drive units.) Hence the questions about further Yamaha involvement..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom