Yes you can, and are hearing the cables ... They are in the signal path.
- Thread starter Akustic
- Start date
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
I do a lot of burning, clearing parts of my 32 acres all summer, every summer. Diesel is what you use, not gas. And this is an excellent GIF that shows why.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
I do a lot of burning, clearing parts of my 32 acres all summer, every summer. Diesel is what you use, not gas. And this is an excellent GIF that shows why.
Or "inexpensive store branded" charcoal grill type starting fluid which works very well for me for yrs when needed.
I have a gas grill so I wait for the lighter fluid to go on sale, which for burning brush clippings is the only reason for me to purchase & keep in stock around here.
No risk of ground hugging highly combustionable fumes igniting.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
I don't grill so I really have not priced that stuff. Is it cheaper than $3 a gallon? I use about ten gallons every summer.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Don`t know, as no diesel fuel is ever been needed for purchase, so I`m ignorant of local pricing, other than diesel is usually been higher priced than gasoline when I have noticed in the past..
My fire starting & burning requirements are considerably less than yours, especially your annual fire starter fluid quantity amounts.
Beware of applying transmission line research to speaker cables. This is a persistent mistake I see, for the simple reason that ALL signal effects of importance in long distance transmission of signal become negligible at the normal length of speaker wires. Huge difference between sending a signal, audio or not, over 50 mile compared to 10 feet. Keep your cables straight, as short as possible, and use adequate diameter wire you will be fine.
The physical connection between wire and amp/speaker is very likely to have more influence on the signal than the material of the cable itself, including any connectors on the ends. The more surface area in the contact the better, and an inert coating of very high conductivity on the wire ends at the connectors will make a very large part of the "different cable sound" go away I suspect. Bare ends in screw posts should be tinned, spring clips should be avoided for best connection, and banana plugs need to be securely soldered on, not crimped. Crimps have low contact area and allow oxide formation, and oxides, depending on their composition, act as resistors, capacitors, or diodes, none of which belong in the signal path from amp to speaker.
Monster Cable was originally high grade 12 gauge stranded copper wire at a time when speaker wires were 22 gauge, or 18 if you were lucky. Works fine for a 10 watt amp driving efficient speaker six feet away maybe, but once you start pushing real power down the wires to large speakers, you need more copper cross section.
The reference standard for a long time was solid core 14 gauge Romex cable by the way -- solid core is better for conduction and limited capacitance, but Romex is rather un-handy being VERY stiff and intended for permanent installation. Heavy, too.
The physical connection between wire and amp/speaker is very likely to have more influence on the signal than the material of the cable itself, including any connectors on the ends. The more surface area in the contact the better, and an inert coating of very high conductivity on the wire ends at the connectors will make a very large part of the "different cable sound" go away I suspect. Bare ends in screw posts should be tinned, spring clips should be avoided for best connection, and banana plugs need to be securely soldered on, not crimped. Crimps have low contact area and allow oxide formation, and oxides, depending on their composition, act as resistors, capacitors, or diodes, none of which belong in the signal path from amp to speaker.
Monster Cable was originally high grade 12 gauge stranded copper wire at a time when speaker wires were 22 gauge, or 18 if you were lucky. Works fine for a 10 watt amp driving efficient speaker six feet away maybe, but once you start pushing real power down the wires to large speakers, you need more copper cross section.
The reference standard for a long time was solid core 14 gauge Romex cable by the way -- solid core is better for conduction and limited capacitance, but Romex is rather un-handy being VERY stiff and intended for permanent installation. Heavy, too.
Willeecue
New Member
Ever look inside your turntable at those little tiny wires from the cartridge to the pre-amp (if it has one).
They are very tiny and carry the small electrical signal from the cartridge to the cables going to your amp.
Why are they not they larger and shielded?
Dont they matter ... they are in the siginal path.
Or how about the wires from the cabinet connectors to the speaker cones.
Shouldn't they be monster cable also?
The wires to my stereo headset are very small also.
How thick and wide are the traces on the printed circuit board inside all your electronic gear?
Should they be big and thick?
Would not real point to point wiring like they used to make be a lot better?
It is a well know science about electrons and how they travel thru wires.
Once had a "expert" tell me that audio going thru a wire with no insulation would make it sound tinny.
He was totally convinced but had no knowledge of the science behind what he believed to be the truth.
So I say this ... the size and material makeup of the hose that the gasoline flows thru to get from the tank
to your engine will make a difference as to the power it can develop.
If it is to small you will not get enough fuel and your motor will not develop full power or even stall.
After a certain size is reached making the hose larger has no effect whatsoever.
Anyone know the science that proves this statement right or wrong?
They are very tiny and carry the small electrical signal from the cartridge to the cables going to your amp.
Why are they not they larger and shielded?
Dont they matter ... they are in the siginal path.
Or how about the wires from the cabinet connectors to the speaker cones.
Shouldn't they be monster cable also?
The wires to my stereo headset are very small also.
How thick and wide are the traces on the printed circuit board inside all your electronic gear?
Should they be big and thick?
Would not real point to point wiring like they used to make be a lot better?
It is a well know science about electrons and how they travel thru wires.
Once had a "expert" tell me that audio going thru a wire with no insulation would make it sound tinny.
He was totally convinced but had no knowledge of the science behind what he believed to be the truth.
So I say this ... the size and material makeup of the hose that the gasoline flows thru to get from the tank
to your engine will make a difference as to the power it can develop.
If it is to small you will not get enough fuel and your motor will not develop full power or even stall.
After a certain size is reached making the hose larger has no effect whatsoever.
Anyone know the science that proves this statement right or wrong?
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
Somewhat related: I bought a stand-up air compressor at Harbor Freight about six years ago and have always had it in my shed, that is powered by a 100 foot extension cord from our back porch outlet. The wire is as thick as you can get for an extension cord (12 ga 15 amp). However, I thought the compressor sucked because it often had a hard time getting up to speed and would throw its internal circuit breaker.
Fast forward to a few months ago. I had a 30x60 shop built on my property and finally got it wired. I plugged the compressor into the wall and it fired up like I had quadrupled its horsepower. All this time it was just having a hard time performing on what little electrons were able to scramble down that long line, too many of them falling off into the grass.
Meanwhile, that extension cord is fine for the trickle charger for my pickup.
??? ...
You seem to be saying that there are no audible effects of audio cables ..
That the only cable effects that are noteworthy, are in cables that are significantly longer than a speaker wire
Wire materials and topology also have measurable and audible effects on short audio cables ..
Notwithstanding your note about the importance of the connections..and the difficulty of transmitting the signal over longer distances ..
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Pretty much. Ten foot or so of 12 ga copper wire has nearly unmeasureably low capacitance, resistance, impedance, or inductance if it's not coiled up somewhere. Not much of anything to cause changes in what acts like DC current (audio signals). Many expensive custom cables have significant capacitance from all the insulated surface area. I don't see that as an improvement.
Low voltage, low amperage, low frequency, not much interaction between signal and cable.
Skin conduction is only an issue at radio frequencies (mega-Hertz, not low kilo-Hertz). No significant voltage effects either, very few pieces of audio equipment run higher than 100V peaks on the output (household current level, no fancy cables there either).
Sure if you try to drive large, low impedance speakers with a big amp and 100 ft of 22 gauge aluminum wire wadded up behind the amp you are going to be disappointed, but so long as the wire has enough cross section to avoid excessive signal loss due to resistance, the wire is essentially transparent.
Hearing is, like all other human senses, very highly processed in the brain, and I suppose some people can "hear" differences in cables that cannot be measured by very very sensitive equipment, but I certainly do not. I've not seen the results of a real double blind study where correctly choosing cables was higher than random chance either.
Probably far more important to match the output and speaker impedance and have low resistance/capacitance/impedance connections.
Keep your cables as short as possible, with straight runs, keep electronic noise broadcasters away from them (or shield each side) and don't worry about it. If you are really obsessed with sound quality, solder the connection to amp and speakers.
Low voltage, low amperage, low frequency, not much interaction between signal and cable.
Skin conduction is only an issue at radio frequencies (mega-Hertz, not low kilo-Hertz). No significant voltage effects either, very few pieces of audio equipment run higher than 100V peaks on the output (household current level, no fancy cables there either).
Sure if you try to drive large, low impedance speakers with a big amp and 100 ft of 22 gauge aluminum wire wadded up behind the amp you are going to be disappointed, but so long as the wire has enough cross section to avoid excessive signal loss due to resistance, the wire is essentially transparent.
Hearing is, like all other human senses, very highly processed in the brain, and I suppose some people can "hear" differences in cables that cannot be measured by very very sensitive equipment, but I certainly do not. I've not seen the results of a real double blind study where correctly choosing cables was higher than random chance either.
Probably far more important to match the output and speaker impedance and have low resistance/capacitance/impedance connections.
Keep your cables as short as possible, with straight runs, keep electronic noise broadcasters away from them (or shield each side) and don't worry about it. If you are really obsessed with sound quality, solder the connection to amp and speakers.
Sounds to me like you're applying Transmission Line research to the audiblity of audio signal transmission effects. ..
I call it the Julian Hirsch argument .. i.e. "All amplifiers measure the same, therefore they all sound the same." (He never should have said it, but he did)
Electrical conduction is part of and responsible for the audio signal effects, but electrical measurements can't measure the audibility of the effects ..
Two samples .. in speaker crossovers .
Air core and iron core inductors have identical electrical measurements but they sound substantially different ..
Different types and brands of capacitors have the same capacitance, but again they're audibly very different one from another ..
The physics of signal transmission apply to every wire in the audio signal path .. the materials and topology of those wires affect signal propagation.
The link that I provided is to the "Basics of Signal Transmission" published by the BICSI which is the International Association of more than 20,000 Information and Communication Technology professionals ...
It outlines a lot more than just electrical conduction ..
The effects that they're outlining are the result of the laws of physics as we understand them ..
The audibility of the effects evolves .. and is argued .. by guys like us while we listen to the music.
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