Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

I really don't have a problem with the cab this size, is there any technical issues?

Performance wise, no.

It's aesthetics, primarily, but also stability. It's top heavy on a small footprint and could kill a toddler trying to climb on it and toppling it, for example. Mine will likely get splayed feet to help with that here in earthquake country.

I'm saying it's just not necessary. LE14A was designed for use in smaller cabinets, and you have constant-directivity vertical dispersion on the waveguides. As you've already heard, it's not essential to be listening spot on-axis as with a conventional tweeter. It'll work standing up, sitting down, or lying on the couch, so you can build using a compromised height.

My upright seated ear height is 47", but I have no 4' high speakers here. 4430, for example, is more like 3', and the horn center is at 30".... :yes:

 

[Bauhausler]

Dooooppe!!

Keg;
I'm tripping over a pair of nice walnut veneer Marantz HD77s here. 26.5" X 15" W X 12" D. Would those help? I have other cabs also.

 

[Kegger]

The tweeter height on this would be roughly 43.5" in the center and I may, yes
dare say it, try other tweets besides a waveguide on this setup...

I hear yu on the top heavy thing but the bottom cab is a tad fatter then the top
plus bracing and maybe some feet I think I'd be fine, no kids or earthquakes here. JUST SNOW!

I figure the extra cab size pretty much gets me any bass I want?

Performance wise, no.

It's aesthetics, primarily, but also stability. It's top heavy on a small footprint and could kill a toddler trying to climb on it and toppling it, for example. Mine will likely get splayed feet to help with that here in earthquake country.

I'm saying that's just not necessary. LE14A was designed for use in smaller cabinets, and you have constant-directivity vertical dispersion on the waveguides. As you've already heard, it's not essential to be listening spot on-axis as with a conventional tweeter. It'll work standing up, sitting down, or lying on the couch, so you can build using a compromised height.

My upright seated ear height is 47", but I have no 4' high speakers here. 4430, for example, is more like 3', and the horn center is at 30".... :yes:

 

[Kegger]

Keg;
I'm tripping over a pair of nice walnut veneer Marantz HD77s here. 26.5" X 15" W X 12" D. Would those help? I have other cabs also.

That's pretty much the exact same size as these bases, but I may hit you up
to see what you got and or take them to, thanks for the offer!:yes:

 

[dnewma04]

The tweeter height on this would be roughly 43.5" in the center and I may, yes
dare say it, try other tweets besides a waveguide on this setup...

I hear yu on the top heavy thing but the bottom cab is a tad fatter then the top
plus bracing and maybe some feet I think I'd be fine, no kids or earthquakes here. JUST SNOW!

I figure the extra cab size pretty much gets me any bass I want?

I've been to Keg's place, and like mine, additional height is welcome to get things up over...ahem....obstacles.

 

[Kegger]

See you got it Dave!

 

[Kegger]

Forgot to respond to this, yep that's the trouble when you go thrifting for one thing,
you end up with another you really didn't "need" LOL!

I did that - and came home with a pair of Philips 10 inch 3-ways speakers in 45 lb cabinets veneered on all 6 sides with teak or something - for $20. Woofers need a refoam, but they sound pretty nice with generic replacements in there for now.

So I try again, and pick up some nice Realistic Solo 1 full-range bookshelf speakers, covered in real walnut veneer. Yes, those'll look real nice....get home and the horns are too big for the boxes by only a 1/4". grrr.

So I learned something: grab an LP from the used bin, and if it fits across the back it's wide enough for the horn, and if it is more than half an LP cover tall than it's tall enough too. Or carry a tape measure!

For now I'm going with the horns mounted in an MDF board.

 

[Andyman]

I've been to Keg's place, and like mine, additional height is welcome to get things up over...ahem....obstacles.

I thought those were "enhancements"

I'm pretty sure I can see his pile from my backyard though.
Just kidding. Actually, I'm to blame for a number of those cabinets myself....

 

[jackgiff]

Confirm three things for me, please:

1) That you don't have any EQ running in the Behringer i.e., both GEQ and PEQ bypassed, preferrably,

2) That you're showing 10 dB/major division resolution, i.e., 30 dB FS, and,

3) Your RTA display is in "Average" mode.

I'll measure the waveguide standing alone, now, not mounted in a cabinet....

OK, now I can confirm that there is/was no EQ running. The resolution is 10 dB per major division. And the Behringer is in "average" mode.

I played with things some more this morning, and since you got the same slope at the upper end I was measuring, the square waveguide went into the baffle cut for it, although the cabinet is unfinished. I still get roughly a 6 dB drop, better than the 7 that it was, but nowhere as nice as your measurement. The first FR is of the 8 inch square waveguide. I tried another D220Ti, but same result. The FR now doesn't look as flat, which is different from yesterdays reads.

So the D220 went onto a 12 X 6 waveguide set on top of the cabinet, and the mic was raised to it's level. It measured roughly +/- 2 dB or better. No problem with that. The second FR is of the 12 X 6.

The third pic is of the test setup. I even installed an LE10 into the woofer hole so the baffle wouldn't have the huge gap. Is my baffle too small? Seems like the test setup is good if the 12 X 6 measures good. The difference between the two FRs is considerable, but I am using the same basic setup that all previous measurements were made with. Even swapping D220's between waveguides doesn't change the results significantly.

The pictures of the FR's of both waveguides is using the same crossover and the same D220Ti. The difference in the leading edge of the response seems significant, as well as the HF drop off. With the same driver and crossover, the only thing that could change the leading and falling edges of the FR is the waveguide, NO?

The response you measured on the baffle looked absolutely great. And the fact that you measured the HF drop in free air was also great. But why can't I get the same response here? Must be either the different baffle or something in my instrumentation setup. Good Grief, Charlie Brown!

 

[Zilch]

With the same driver and crossover, the only thing that could change the leading and falling edges of the FR is the waveguide, NO?

Thank you for verifying your measurement conditions, Jack. :thmbsp:

The 8" waveguide does not play as low as the 12" wide one. Acoustic crossover is 1.875 kHz in the Advent rather than standard E'Wave nominal 1.6 kHz. This smaller waveguide w/Selenium D220Ti would not be a good matchup with LE14A, for example, which does not play well this high.

As to the high-end extension, I don't have an answer, but will provide more data here shortly. Again, we're talking about relatively small differences, and it's largely academic with respect to how they sound, which I find, as do you, is damn good.... :yes:

 

[KCM]

Bms 4540nd ?

While deciding which woofer to use when I build nice cabinets for a "finished" waveguide speaker, I'm back to experimenting with my Altec 19's.

I've got them sounding much better this go round, pretty stupendous in fact, if I do say so myself

The key has been using a first order crossover and (less so) electrically time aligning the drivers.

Although I love the sound of my Radian drivers, I hate using those cheap bolt-on to thread-on adapters. It's gotta' be a bad thing that the transition is so sloppy.

There's a pair of BMS 4540ND's for sale and I'm considering those. I've searched this thread and LH and it seems it may be asking a bit much of this little driver in this application. I'm currently rolling off at ~900hz from the 416-8B woofer and in at ~2500hz to the waveguide again, first order on both. I won't compromise on that, because I just can't get seem to get the "magic" with second, third or fourth order slopes that I'm hearing now.

I would appreciate your thoughts and advice !

 

[Zilch]

I would appreciate your thoughts and advice !

4540nd is a tweeter driver.

For Model 19, use 4550 or 4552nd:

http://bmspro.com/Compression-Drivers.bms_compression_drivers.0.html

 

[Cosmos]

Also in winter I don't really have access to a place I can build boxes from scratch, but I can take some prebuilt ones an modify them without to much problem though. :thmbsp:

Paul, just give me the dimensions you want cut and tell me what you want it made out of and I can cut it into finished panels that you can final assemble...

BTW, what happened to MegaGodzillaWave?

 

[Kegger]

Still thinking here Dan, thanks for the offer, maybe a base, HUMM......:scratch2:

 

[MarkNJ]

Zilch,

I think I'm going to order the parts I need soon... just want to make sure I've got it all right..

364700-001 WAVEGUIDE AC COMPACT SERIES $14.00 from JBL (8" square)

Selenium D220Ti-OMF-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3 Bolt

Dayton DC250-8 10" Classic Woofer

Are these the right parts? Also, do you have the crossover parts worked out for this combo yet? I've been trying to stay up to date with this and the Advent thread but I'm not sure I've seen a definitive crossover parts list yet.

Thanks again!

 

[Kegger]

I have another set coming, I am hoping I can get 1 pair with decent Lansaloy an
compare those to a set I'll refoam, take measurements and listening impressions.

they were not moving at all previously but completely
intact, first coat after a bit got it moving, ran woofer tester with FS of 90 or so.
Worked in a bit more got it to an FS of 70, let it sit overnight, got an FS of 47, I
applied a tad more an worked the surround, got it to an FS of 40.

Left it at that cleanded it up, let sit another day, FS stayed at about 42, I then
installed it back in the cab, threw a North Creek tweet in there so I could play it
for a while, maybe loosen up a bit more then I'll recheck the FS to see.

Yes pretty much an experiment, but if I can get 1 pair to around an FS of 30, an
the surrounds look good I'll leave 1 pair like that until I "have" to change them.

Well I decided to recheck the LE14 today, Good news.... I have an FS of 28.26!
Bad news, I don't have another LE14 that has a surround intact to have a mate.

The good one is in excellent shape, I have not been around to know what lansaloy
was like when new but this now feels like a nice pair of fine leather or suede gloves.

It is a bit of a bummer it was all for not and I've got to refoam all 4, but I've learned.:scratch2:

 

[Zilch]

Are these the right parts? Also, do you have the crossover parts worked out for this combo yet? I've been trying to stay up to date with this and the Advent thread but I'm not sure I've seen a definitive crossover parts list yet.

It's a thread-on throat waveguide, so the correct Selenium is PE Part# 264-270.

Once the DC250-8 bass response is corrected, it's a relatively low-sensitivity woofer. Use the XO I show in the Advent thread for now. Paratima worked up a BOM for it when I used it with that woofer in KLH-17, which shows the correct crossover components:

http://lesgphoto.com/AK/ZLH-17.htm

BTW, what happened to MegaGodzillaWave?

I'm makin' room to set them up as a stereo pair w/ 45° toe-in to do the Everest thing.

So far, one pair of updated Minimus 7s have moved out, and an A-25 has moved in....

 

[Zilch]

8" Square PT-D95HF-1 - More Data:

Behavior of three D220Ti drivers on 8" square waveguide in large Advent cab using prototype "High-sensitivity" highpass filter:

Behringer DEQ2496 RTA measurements with driver #11, used to develop the filter circuit:

Same, but freestanding on test stand, out-of-cab:

CLIO MLS measurements of the same comparison. Pop quiz: What's going on here? Extra credit: What is the effective baffle width of the freestanding waveguide, assuming this data is correct?

Comparison in-cab with "Very-low-sensitivity" version highpass developed earlier for KLH-17 and Advent. Indeed, -20 dB, exactly as Jack observed; the curves are virtually identical despite having been developed independently:

Now, we just need another one, half-way in between, subject to confirmation, of course.

More extra credit: What woofer sensitivity would theoretically balance with the green curve, above?

 

[Russellc]

Yes Russell I keep everything, rarely does anything get tossed around here, and for
some stupid reason I like to collect speakers, so when someone wants something to
go away they call Keg, He'll take it..

Michigan must be some sort of "speaker grave yard" where old speakers go to be reborn as Econowaves. I cant find nearly as many as you publish here, and I'm sure you have more!



Congrats

russellc

 

[Russellc]

Behavior of three D220Ti drivers on 8" square waveguide in large Advent cab using prototype "High-sensitivity" highpass filter:

Behringer DEQ2496 RTA measurements with driver #11, used to develop the filter circuit:

Same, but freestanding on test stand, out-of-cab:

CLIO MLS measurements of the same comparison. Pop quiz: What's going on here? Extra credit: What is the effective baffle width of the freestanding waveguide, assuming this data is correct?

Comparison in-cab with "Very-low-sensitivity" version highpass developed earlier for KLH-17 and Advent. Indeed, -20 dB, exactly as Jack observed; the curves are virtually identical despite having been developed independently:

Now, we just need another one, half-way in between, subject to confirmation, of course.

More extra credit: What woofer sensitivity would theoretically balance with the green curve, above?

Something in the low 80s? I assume that this is a "trick" question and I have missed the boat more than likely. It has the 60 ohm resistor and appears to be for the Advent, so that's my guess and I'm sticking to it.

russellc