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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I pop in with projects from time to time to tickle the DIY E'Wave spirit:

attachment.php

That's 2206H woofers plus DE250 on 18-Sound XT1086, and it is indeed sweet. Problem is, purchased new, its $1200/pair worth of components, and scrounging for used, $800 minimum, unless you get lucky. The big bucks is in the woofers, but Jrock7 has just shown us that some less expensive ones will likely work, too. Yes, they need a sub, but I'll have a somewhat radical surprise coming to stick between them there soon. Hint: L40.

Jack's already done a less adventuresome upgrade, BMS 4555 on the 1.5" JBL PT-F95HF waveguide.

Let's lean on him to work up the HF compensation and crossover for that with, say, LE14A, which I'm currently using as my test stand in that pic. Those are LE14H-1 with 4555, left and right, below.

In the background, AR4x's modded with JBL OASR waveguides. They're presently sporting BMS 4540 drivers, but the new JBL 2414H(-1) would be a worthy yet inexpensive candidate as well. Woofers are vintage JBL 116A/H, also used in the mini-4425s my friend John and I developed some years ago on LHF using 2404H "Baby Butt" tweeters, next to them.

There's plenty of fun and worthy DIY in E'Wave design principles.... :yes:
 

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Zilch said:
There's plenty of fun and worthy DIY in E'Wave design principles.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Yes, that's my point. We need to be looking "outside the box" for inspiration for new projects. Lots of guys are talking about the DE250, and no doubt it is a worthy candidate. Absolutely no doubt in my mind about the BMS drivers either. They are world class. But none of these are really EconoWave, are they? The EconoWave is a Selenium D220Ti and the crossover that was designed for it. You can also substitute a Selenium D210Ti, making it a bit more Econo. But a DE250 is not a plug in replacement for the Selenium drivers.

The principles used in the design of the EconoWave can be used to good advantage while designing crossovers for other HF drivers. Maybe going to more expensive drivers means using higher order crossovers as well. Everything is relative. EconoWave was a learning tool. We can do better, and still cost less than manufactured speakers.

Jack's already done a less adventuresome upgrade, BMS 4555 on the 1.5" JBL PT-F95HF waveguide.

Let's lean on him to work up the HF compensation and crossover for that with, say, LE14A, which I'm currently using as my test stand in that pic. Those are LE14H-1 with 4555, left and right, below.
Click to expand...

I would be glad to do a crossover for a BMS 4555 on the bolt on JBL waveguide, and using a JBL LE14H-3 woofer in a cabinet of around 2.4 cubic feet. That will be my next project after getting my eyes fixed. A larger cabinet may sound better, but I have a pair of Altec Sevilles that I plan to use. This may be right up someones alley, or may not. But it will not be in the EconoWave thread, cause it sure will not be Econo.

LE14A's, refoamed of course, may be acceptable replacements for the H-3's, and larger cabinets will probably improve the bass response. Still a couple things for the user who wants to duplicate a speaker design to choose himself. That's how it should be. And the EconoWave principles will be applied in the design, although the final outcome may be nothing close to the EconoWave. But it will be be another step forward. And another learning experience for me.
 
jackgiff said:
Zilch and I wanted to come up with an economical two way speaker system, which would serve as a "starter" project to help get some other speaker builders "doing their own thing." 55 other builders have so far built an EconoWave, and they all agree it is pretty nice. Some, myself included, have even built multiple systems, and many more have said they have more projects on the way. That is heady stuff for me to contemplate.
Click to expand...
We've been criticized on other forums for a lack of sophistication in EconoWave designs. As you and I know, it was intentional from the outset, and the degrees of freedom the approach allows has produced an astonishingly diverse compilation of successful DIY projects.

"Heady stuff," indeed, and plenty good fun, with more to come.... :thmbsp:
 
Yes Zilch, I think it will. Due to all the waveguide shortages ect.. in the
past, I think its way over 100 now. How about this for a project idea:
Come up with a few clones for us to build that would mirror the best
vintage speakers ever made. A three way and a two way with inexpensive
decent quality drivers and premade crossovers that the average joe six
pack could put together using old thrift store cabs. Dayton classic woofers?
and............you the man:thmbsp: You know I read about some of you guys
having all those Dynaco's and Advents just laying around in your way but
I've been in every thrift store within 50 miles and never seen a pair or JBL's
either.
 
jackgiff said:
Many guys have bought instrumentation such as RTA's, and can now do their own crossover design. Using this thread as a starter, we should have people doing some really nice projects. We have seen several EconoWave conversions done by people who started their own threads. But no one has stood up, started a thread to develop the next step system (maybe using the well loved DE250's, or a pair of BMS's), and went for it publicly like Zilch and I did on the EconoWave. Where is everybodies spirit of adventure?
Click to expand...

Part of the problem is setting up a good measurement system is cost prohibitive, more so that just stepping up to higher end drivers :)

So what type of measuring system equipment does one need to procure to have a repeatable way to measure responses like Zilch has?

I imagine it's more than just buying the equipment, since taking repeatable measurements involves discipline on the setup.

The most impressive thing about the measurements here is they are repeatable. I've seen the same configurations measured, dismantled, and measured again later with the same resultant response curve.

A nice little "wiki" on the test environment would be cool. Maybe it's already in this thread somewhere....
 
lico said:
So what type of measuring system equipment does one need to procure to have a repeatable way to measure responses like Zilch has?

I imagine it's more than just buying the equipment, since taking repeatable measurements involves discipline on the setup.

The most impressive thing about the measurements here is they are repeatable. I've seen the same configurations measured, dismantled, and measured again later with the same resultant response curve.

A nice little "wiki" on the test environment would be cool. Maybe it's already in this thread somewhere....
Click to expand...
I am stunned by the repeatability of measurements made in comparison to those of others using different systems in different environments from all over the world, even. The secret is that everyone is using accurate equipment and following the same measurement protocol(s). As long as we control the variables, we get similar results.

There is growing interest in modeling and measuring here on AK, and we need to come up with an organized compilation of information regarding available options, many of which have already been documented in various threads here, for posting as a forum reference sticky.... :dunno:
 
Zilch said:
We've been criticized on other forums for a lack of sophistication in EconoWave designs. As you and I know, it was intentional from the outset, and the degrees of freedom the approach allows has produced an astonishingly diverse compilation of successful DIY projects.

"Heady stuff," indeed, and plenty good fun, with more to come.... :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

similar thing happened with Indignia. You hear people talking about it, comparing it to this and that way more expensive speaker, where the original concept was a 100 buck pair and could it sound good?

Dam thing sounded so good people forgot all about the bargain aspect of the equation.:thmbsp:

If someone gets the time or equipment, I and many others certainly would appreciate a work up on the DE 250. I understand about only so much time and all that, but its a good driver that several of us have, but as far as I know Zilch is the only one with both the DE 250 AND measure/design capability. I would be happy to build up whatever is done, right along with the designer, hunt down/pay for parts, etc.

Russellc
 
lico said:
Part of the problem is setting up a good measurement system is cost prohibitive, more so that just stepping up to higher end drivers :)

So what type of measuring system equipment does one need to procure to have a repeatable way to measure responses like Zilch has?

I imagine it's more than just buying the equipment, since taking repeatable measurements involves discipline on the setup.

The most impressive thing about the measurements here is they are repeatable. I've seen the same configurations measured, dismantled, and measured again later with the same resultant response curve.

A nice little "wiki" on the test environment would be cool. Maybe it's already in this thread somewhere....
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with the equipment aspect. Some people here just want a speaker, not a bunch of measuring equipment. I sort of understand, when I bought a house, I didnt buy everything that would be needed to build the house, I just wanted a house someone else had already gone to all that trouble for. Myself, if I could learn all that and do it myself, if I could save money building it myself, I sure would. but many arent in agreement and I guess that's OK.

E'wave has been a hands on project from the begining, with a degree of self involvement required. with few exceptions, like LE14A or H-3, you are
basically on your own on the LF portion, and that's OK With me, I dont mind, just not have the equip., so I use the "ear" method="I dont know, but I think so, maybe.:D

russellc
 
Zilch said:
There is growing interest in modeling and measuring here on AK, and we need to come up with an organized compilation of information regarding available options, many of which have already been documented in various threads here, for posting as a forum reference sticky.... :dunno:
Click to expand...


Excellent idea, as big as E'wave is, I really feel this is just the beginning, and with the ideas being put forth in the last few posts, that this will eventually grow to several fairly good sized threads covering projects, drivers, measuring and so forth all linked together.

It could easily be the bible for building 2 way waveguide speakers, as well as virtual repository for information related to same.:thmbsp:

Russellc
 
Zilch said:
I pop in with projects from time to time to tickle the DIY E'Wave spirit:

attachment.php

That's 2206H woofers plus DE250 on 18-Sound XT1086, and it is indeed sweet. Problem is, purchased new, its $1200/pair worth of components, and scrounging for used, $800 minimum, unless you get lucky. The big bucks is in the woofers, but Jrock7 has just shown us that some less expensive ones will likely work, too. Yes, they need a sub, but I'll have a somewhat radical surprise coming to stick between them there soon. Hint: L40.

Jack's already done a less adventuresome upgrade, BMS 4555 on the 1.5" JBL PT-F95HF waveguide.

Let's lean on him to work up the HF compensation and crossover for that with, say, LE14A, which I'm currently using as my test stand in that pic. Those are LE14H-1 with 4555, left and right, below.

In the background, AR4x's modded with JBL OASR waveguides. They're presently sporting BMS 4540 drivers, but the new JBL 2414H(-1) would be a worthy yet inexpensive candidate as well. Woofers are vintage JBL 116A/H, also used in the mini-4425s my friend John and I developed some years ago on LHF using 2404H "Baby Butt" tweeters, next to them.

There's plenty of fun and worthy DIY in E'Wave design principles.... :yes:
Click to expand...

More waveguides per square mile than any place I've seen. Zilch you have been the most active builder here, and along with Jackgiff of course have lead the charge. Thanks:thmbsp::thmbsp::thmbsp:

And by the way, that 18-sound waveguide looks killer, but before I buy I must wait to see if anyone does something with it I can
work off of. I've got enough parts I'm not sure to do with!

Another thing that looks like its popular enough to work up more is the use of 2235H in this project.
A few of us have it, its not that horribly expensive to find used, and old shot 2225H can be turned into BRAND NEW ones for 4 bills.
It was used in the E'wave mothership, the JBL 4430. It allows for really low powerful bass, and for a 15 inch
driver, it does 2-way fine as evidenced by the 4430 itself.

I also understnd about the comments made that all the parts for the 1206 and 18-sound setup being 800 used.
Can 800-1200 buy any thing JBL or anyone else has made that's better? I dont know, but for home use I doubt it.
The Dayton drivers sure would tip the cost factor further. My big expense was the woofers. I got the cabs and drivers for 300, and the 2225H drivers worked well. The recone of another pair of 2225H to 22235H was about 400. Still, I plan to keep this some while, and the performance is killer. What is out there, if anything 2 way horn/waveguide wise that would stack up? I'm just not familiar with that market.

Russellc
 
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My .02 on Econowave

I fell hard for this 'module' as soon as I heard it with D210/PH612 in Utility Advents. It just stomped anything remotely like it in price. I've since built another, better pair and have several additional projects under testing.
The popularity of this is likely due to the low cost. The buy in to convert a decent pair of vintage speakers is $200 or less, which is within reach of a lot of hobbyists. Also it requires no costly tools and the learning curve is short.
If there's a next step, it's likely in a number of different directions. Going to the BMS 4555 or the DE250 suddenly doubles the price. Go to a different WG and you have another price jump. The number of people willing to shell out that kind of money is much smaller. They are likely to be somewhat more sophisticated and to have different ideas of what they want to achieve. The one size fits all solution fits fewer people in that case. The cost/benefit of twice the money for incremental improvement provides much less incentive.

I'd love to pick up development of a next gen Ewave. The Advents have been great for me but I recognize the limitations. I work on audio stuff of all kinds constantly. From rehabbing vintage tube amps to Gainclones to selling vintage audio on That Auction Site, etc. Customer repairs, systems for friends and so on. Devoting the resources (time, mostly) to an open ended new speaker project would crowd out most of the other stuff.

I've been fooling with WinISD and the LE10A woofer. It looks like a really killer bottom end could be achieved in a 4-5 cu ft vented cabinet. My next ewave would probably be based on that. I'm considering different top end options to exceed the performance of the D220Ti/PH612. Will I do it? Unlikely. Too much stuff already overdue and piled on the bench.
Yesterday I shopped at Home Depot for appropriate pre-cut pieces of 3/4" MDF tha tcould be turned into a cabinet with minimal woodwork. Even with a reasonably easy cabinet build this would probably be a 40 hour 'experiment' just to find out if I like the bottom end.
 
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Bauhausler said:
Yesterday I shopped at Home Depot for appropriate pre-cut pieces of 3/4" MDF tha tcould be turned into a cabinet with minimal woodwork. Even with a reasonably easy cabinet build this would probably be a 40 hour 'experiment' just to find out if I like the bottom end.
Click to expand...

That's the idea I have for speaker cab building myself. Have HD or Lowes cut to close but slightly too large, then pair them down to size using a router table like LH forum member Macaroonie's "Backyard Speaker Build" on that same forum.

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
That's the idea I have for speaker cab building myself. Have HD or Lowes cut to close but slightly too large, then pair them down to size using a router table like LH forum member Macaroonie's "Backyard Speaker Build" on that same forum.

Russellc
Click to expand...

My local HD sells 3/4" MDF in convenient 2' X 4' sizes. That looks good for making a 12" wide cab 2' deep and 4' high. Volume depends on where you put the 'bottom' of the cabinet. I'd go with teh full 7 - 8 cu ft for starters. Casters would be necessary, as the weight would be extreme. I'd make the front baffle removable for experimenting with different drivers up to 12" wide and different ports. Put bricks or styro blocks inside to reduce the volume for most applications. Might be a good test bed cabinet for full range 2-way development.

I'm back to listening to my AR3/5A frankenspeakers. B110 and T27 in AR3 cabs with AR3 woofers. LS3/5A crossover on top. Line level crossover at 200 hz and driven by a pair of Accuphase P-300 monoblocks. Great tonality but the dispersion and openness of a waveguide is missing. Too bad the JBL 6" WG won't fit in place of the T27. I like everything about this except the tweeter.
 
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Bauhausler said:
My local HD sells 3/4" MDF in convenient 2' X 4' sizes. That looks good for making a 12" wide cab 2' deep and 4' high. Volume depends on where you put the 'bottom' of the cabinet. I'd go with teh full 7 - 8 cu ft for starters. Casters would be necessary, as the weight would be extreme. I'd make the front baffle removable for experimenting with different drivers up to 12" wide and different ports. Put bricks or styro blocks inside to reduce the volume for most applications. Might be a good test bed cabinet for full range 2-way development.
Click to expand...



Sounds like a great idea, with 7-8 cu ft on tap, there wouldnt be many woofers you couldnt tune for.:yes:



Russellc
 
jrock7 said:
hi Zilch, do you know the cutout measurement for the JBL 6x6 horn lense (to use for econowave)?
Click to expand...
The exterior dimension is close to 6" square, and the flange is ~3/4" all around on the rear, so 4.5" square, maybe a bit over that.

Break the front edges of the cutout with a rasp, if you have to, to get it sitting flush. I'd rather have the extra wood there to take T-nuts, if desired....
 
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